Gunmouth (aka. Matt Burt)

[featheredragon.livejournal.com]

I will be updating this thread as circumstances progress. As of right now, I regret to say that people should not commission Gunmouth.   Please read below to see why.

I commissioned him at Anthrocon and he owes me two commissions which I paid for in full and one of which I have yet to give him details for (which was commissioned prior to this year's Anthrocon). 

Since Anthrocon 2010, I've been contact Gunmouth to remind him about my commission from Anthrocon 2010 and ask him when he thought he might finish it.  I just wanted to know when he thought he'd have it done.  That way, I could just wait until then rather then messaging him every month or so.  Indeed, the AC2010 commission was supposed to be finished at Anthrocon he wasn't able to get it done in time.  The rough draft of the drawing was nearly complete but he had to trace it on good paper and ink it.  I said, sure, no problem; I'd rather be patient and have you do it right than rush to get it done at the con.  If you want to take it come and are ok with that then I'm fine with that to. 

Since I've had problems communicating with him in the past prior to AC2010, I made sure to tell him that while I'm fine with being patient, even several months if necessary, it drives me nuts when I get no response to my inquires about the status of my commission.  I made sure Gunmouth knew this and asked him to please reply and asked him if he could do this and he said sure. 

Now, since the AC2010 drawing was close to being done, I thought he should have some news to tell me around a month after AC but he hasn't attempted to contact me or reply to my messages despite the fact that his FurAffinity account is active (he posts journals, favs artwork, replies to others comments on his FA page, etc.). 

In short, the problem is that he doesn't read my FA messages and doesn't respond to them.  I know he doesn't read my FA messages because FA allows you to check if they've been opened by the recipient.  He never, ever checks them.  I've even posted directly on the front of his FA page to get his attention and still he ignores me.   If he has time to reply to comments on his FA page and fave pictures and even after almost a month since AC2010 he still hasn't replied, well, there's no excuse.   It's not complicated or hard for him to reply to my asking him for an idea when an almost complete commission will be finished--in fact, it would have taken him mere seconds to reply but he didn't.  That lack of responsiveness does not inspire confidence or trust. 

I've been keeping track of the dates when I've messaged him since AC2010.  I messaged him on July 4, July 19, July 29, July 30, and today.  I've sent messages to his Furaffinity mailbox, posts on directly on his Furaffinity page, to his e-mail, MSN, ICQ, and AIM accounts, and on his Deviantart page.  At first, I thought to wait two weeks each time and give him a chance to reply since he's busy but it's become apparent that he has no intention of doing so and is in fact purposely ignoring me for reasons only he knows.

Although he seemed sincere in person at Anthrocon about his intentions I can no-longer trust him because his subsequent behavior is not that of a responsible business person or human being.   I see no reason why I should trust him to finish the commissions I paid him for if he willfully ignores me without explanation.

It is for this reason that today, after a month of trying contact him and waiting for a reply, I decided to ask Gunmouth for a refund.  I thought it would be best since I know I'm only going to get more frustrated if I attempt to wait longer and based on my experiences with other people I think it's unlikely he's going to reform his behavior to satisfy me.  So, rather than drag-on this problem I just decided to ask for a refund.  I have little sympathy for people think it's alright to ignore paying customers. 

Today, on his FA page and by e-mail I wrote: 

"No offense but if you're not going to reply to my messages for an update I want a refund. Please send $190USD that I paid you to my PayPal account (*****@******). I've been as patient as I'm going to be. Thx.

I'm also adding you to the Livejournal artists_beware thread that I'll be updating until this is resolved. You're nice enough in person and I know you're busy but I can't work with someone who never replies. "

I think it's unfortunate that it's come to this because I'm perfectly happy to wait for him to be able to finish them (and I really do want Gunmouth to finish them) but only if he maintains a dialogue with me when I infrequently ask him how it's coming along and when he expects it will be done.  Otherwise, who's to say he's not a crook who's trying to rip me off?!  A person's word is only as good as their actions. 

I've got commissions still ongoing from 2008 from other artists without issue and the only difference between them and Gunmouth is that they actually respond--maybe not always right away, usually within the week but certainly within a month.  A healthy dialogue is important!  Gunmouth, for all his artistic merit, has unfortunately failed to keep in contact with this customer.  In short, as far as I can tell, he's being irresponsible at best and criminal at worst.  After all, if you pay someone for a service they have a responsibility to keep you informed and reply within a reasonable time period. 


Here is a list of some of his online locations though which I've attempted to communicate with him:
http://www.furaffinity.net/user/gunmouth/
http://gunmouth.deviantart.com/
MSN: knockemupstinky(at sign thing)hotmail.com
AIM: badvibes13
# ICQ: 4337720
E-mail: (I'm not listing it for privacy reasons)

Other places where he's online:
http://gunnmouth.livejournal.com/
http://inkbunny.net/GuNMouTH

Note: The names, links, and contact info mentioned in this post are in the public domain and found online on the internet so I have no issue listing them here. 

Will be updating this thread as things progress.

[[UPDATE: August 2, 2010, Current Status of Dispute: in process of being resolved. Link to my reply to Gunmouth's reply to my initial post: http://community.livejournal.com/artists_beware/356583.html?thread=11512295#t11512295 ]]

[[UPDATE: August 3, 2010, Current Status of Dispute: in process of being resolved (making headway, cautiously optimistic); Link to my update: http://community.livejournal.com/artists_beware/356583.html?thread=11548647#t11548647 ]]

[[UPDATE: August 6, 2010, Current Status of Dispute: resolved.  Link to my update: http://community.livejournal.com/artists_beware/356583.html?thread=11609831#t11609831 ]]

[[EDIT: April 5, 2011: Didn't change anything but removed my e-mail address and replaced it with *****@****.  I don't like it being so easily in the public domain; should have thought of that at the time but was preoccupied.]]

[[ UPDATE: 2012 JAN 07:

SUMMARY: Gunmouth is a complex person and seems decent and friendly enough in person.  His artwork is superb.  However, new commissioners are advised to restrict themselves to at convention commissions only.  If commissioners decide to commission him for a take-home, they certainly should only pay a small deposit upfront and the remainder only after the commission is finished.  Unfortunately, Gunmouth, like some artists, is not particularly reliable when it comes to responding to commissioners via the internet.  Although I think we both tried our best to work together, speaking for myself, I simply became too uncomfortable waiting and waiting and having difficulty getting replies from him.  For his part, I'm guessing he became frustrated with my attention to detail for the commission--although, I though we had resolved that and I did try my best to accommodate his needs.  

Unwilling to prolong my frustration, yesterday, I asked for a refund.  Gunmouth thankfully replied the same day and has refunded me 4/5ths of the total, and will refund the remaining 1/5th after he has more money in his Paypal.  I regret that will never have the commission completed as it looked very promising in sketch form.  As I explained to Gunmouth yesterday, I simply become far to frustrated when artists delay and fail to respond to messages.  I don't send them often but when I do, I don't like waiting weeks or months for replies--it just doesn't inspire confidence in the artist.  It made me feel like I was being scammed and lied to or at the very least constantly being bumped to he bottom of the priority pile--despite the fact that I had paid in full already--such that it was questionable whether the art would every actually get done.  Feeling my mood and confidence gradually deteriorate, I decided asking for a refund from now was the best thing I could do to prevent what might become an eventual explosion of anger on my part which of course would not help matters.  So, I'm quite grateful that Gunmouth responded promptly to the refund request and I look forward to getting the refund completed.  I regret we couldn't make this work.

LONGER EXPLAINATION:

One commission was still outstanding.  It was supposed to be finished by Anthrocon 2011 in June but all Gunmouth had was a sketch to show me.  It was enough however that I felt that progress was being made.  A few months later, I contacted Gunmouth to let him know that I would be attending MFF2011 in November and that I could pick up the completed commission if he was able to get it done by then.  At MFF, Gunmouth showed me the sketch and asked if there were any changes that I'd like made; he apologized for not having it finished but said he had been too busy to get to it.  Having doubts as to whether he actually wanted and intended to finish my commission I asked him if he wanted to finish it or not and he said yes.  He asked me if I wanted any alterations made and we made some small alterations to the sketch.  I then asked him for a guess as to a rough date of completion.  Gunmouth said he'd probably have something to show me around mid December.  I waited until December 28th before I asked him for an update regarding the commission.  Receiving no response, I tried again a week later but still no reply.  Three days later, after noticing that three other commissioners had posted shouts on Gunmouth's FA asking for updates for their commissions and complaining about the lack of communication, I finally had enough and sent Gunmouth a request for a refund.  The same day Gunmouth refunded 4/5ths of the money paid to my Paypal and messaged me saying he'll send the rest when he has more money is his Paypal.  So, for the moment things are alright.  

However, I am disappointed that I wont be getting that commission from Gunmouth.  The sketch as looking promising and we seemed to be getting a long well enough--although I know better than to say we were friends.  Although Gunmouth has been better at communicating with me since the opening of this thread over a year ago, there have been a few occasions where he simply did not reply at all.  

Essentially, it's the combination of waiting so long but especially the spotty communication that caused me to decide to ask for a refund.  As I explained to Gunmouth, I find it much too frustrating and time consuming to have to constantly pursue artists when they don't answer or deliver on time.  Compared to some other artists I've commissioned, Gunmouth has not been particularly communicative online and so I didn't have what I felt was a healthy rapport with him.   

At MFF, trying to take Gunmouth's needs into consideration, I told him that I'd be alright waiting for the commission to be finished by Anthrocon 2012 if he couldn't complete it by December.  However, as I have explained to him previously, my waiting is contingent upon the artist replying to messages.  As a commissioner I simply got to the point where I questioned if the commission would ever be completed.  Although my dealings with Gunmouth have revealed that he can be a pretty decent person with interesting perspectives and useful advice, I simply don't know him well enough trust him to finish it given the way things have been going.

So, that is the state of affairs.  Prospective commissioners should feel free to commission him but just be cautious and I think everyone will be happier if commissioners limit themselves to at-con commissions only.  

Gunmouth, if you end up reading this update, I want you to know I appreciate you trying to work with me but I think we both agree it wasn't working and that my asking for a refund was the best thing.  I know now I wasn't a perfect commissioner initially--with respect to giving too much detail with the commission--but I have listened to you and other artists and have made things simpler and shorter and I continue to work on things.  It has been a learning experience I think for both of us.  I'm glad at least that even if we can't get the commission finished that at least we can end on a semi-positive note. 

[[ UPDATE: 2012 FEB 10]]

Got rest of refund about a week ago.
Not sure if Gunmouth was reading my messages or only their titles.
Offered to let him keep the rest of the refund in exchange for the incomplete drawing (the existing sketch version) since it seemed the most mutually beneficial and he said he needed money.  However, Gunmouth did not respond to that which is fine if disappointing.
He is really a poor communicator.  Trying to contact him is like pulling teeth.
I think he was just frustrated with the level of detail I wanted.  I tried my best to work with him and even asked him at MFF2011 if he wanted to do the drawing or not with no hard feelings either way.
At-con commissions are probably ok but would not recommend him for take homes.
Things could have ended on a better note but at least we didn't argue.
Situation is now fully resolved and closed. 

[[ UPDATE: 2012 JUN @ Anthrocon ]]

Spoke with Gunmouth in person.  Wanted to try and patch things up as I felt we hadn't ended on the best of terms. I think we are both happier for the attempt.  We talked about a few things and Gunmouth mentioned that the reason he hadn't finished my commission is that he realized that he doesn't like drawing hyper characters.  Every time he tried to work on it he ended up working on something else.  I also asked him why he wasn't always replying to my messages.  He said his working style is more results oriented and that he prefers to only contact people when he has something to show them.  So, our conversation all-in-all was positive. I asked Gunmouth about the possibility of paying him $20 to get the sketch he's already done and he said I could contact him prior to my next convention and he will bring the sketch so I can pay to get it.  However, due to the fact that he doesn't enjoy drawing hypers (which I said I totally understand) and our disparate working styles (ie. concerning our views on online communication) I haven't any plans to commission Gunmouth again or to resume my uncompleted commission.  So, all-in-all, I think we patched things up so that we both feel at ease. 

Comments

[kayla-na.livejournal.com]

I think he needed the money at that time, I'm not sure. Otherwise, I'm pretty sure he would have given Feather his money back.

[gunmouth.livejournal.com]

Hmm. Good idea, actually.

I could make an e-mail addie specifically for commissions...


Then NO ONE would be able to STOP ME!!


Mwaha... mwahahahaa... MWAHAHAHAHAHAHHHHHAAAHHAAA!!!!

[penanggalan.livejournal.com]

She has only had one big change, other than that any time you see her different is because she has many options; her hair and spots have no constant color, for example :P And if you didn't know that, you could always just ask, and you wouldn't -have- to post it, either... bad excuses!

The only thing that flat-out irritates me is how you only speak to me when you want your vore fix; I know a mutual friend has spoken to you about your addiction, it makes you say and do some pretty selfish things, even to friends. It'd be cool if you could get back on track with everyone and give people updates, at the very least.

Engage: TL;DR response

[duster.livejournal.com]

Regardless of how obnoxious the customer was at the convention, you took the money. Therefore you were under an obligation, no matter how mindbogglingly annoying the customer is, to complete the work you were paid for.

If he was grating your nerves that much, then refund him and take away a valuable lesson. Or better yet, don't take the commission in the first place. A business in art sucks, people get irritating customers all the time. I do, I've gotten customers I've wanted to slap in the face with my keyboard. But that's the catch with art. And you have two options. A, put on a smile, do the work, and get them out of your hair. B, refund them and get them out of your hair.

But I find this whole addition VERY unprofessional. You're playing the blame game and trying to make the commissioner seem more horrible than you and frankly, it's childish. I don't like the idea that if I complain about an artist COMPLETELY IGNORING ME that the artist will turn around, dig up dirt, and go "BUT YOU DID THIIIIIISSSS THEY'RE THE BAD GUY."

If they were such a difficult customer, make an entry. But you just look like you're trying to pass off responsibility.

[gunmouth.livejournal.com]

You don't understand...

I ALWAYS want vore. I just asked so much cuz I thought you liked it.

Kami got on my case about bugging people, so I oftentimes just sit quiet and only talk to people if they message me. Probably for the best, since I have lots to do.

Re: Engage: TL;DR response

[gunmouth.livejournal.com]

I'm just explaining why I was ignoring the notes. I had FULL intention of finishing the commission, which was already half done. Some people will see it as a good excuse to avoid annoyances, others will see me as being childish and passing blame.

This situation hasn't been grating on my nerves as much as you may think. The stuff that happened at AC wasn't as bad as it was at MFM, which is WHY I took this commission in the first place.

All I'm doing is telling my side of the story, before people start thinkin' that I simply did not care for a poor, innocent commissioner's needs.

I COULD have made a post about him, but I figured I'd just put it here where it had relevance. Shoulda, coulda, woulda, but didn't-- doesn't matter. His commission is getting done, just as it always was, and I've already taken care of it. All that matters.

[penanggalan.livejournal.com]

Well, yeah, but at one point a person starts to feel used :P Especially when you try to commission me for a vore story and when I give you a price, you come back with "yeah but this one other girl does them much cheaper"... sorta rude, yes?

Unless she was on you for pushing people for vore; you should be able to talk to whoever you want, when you want. :P But you've been told this many times by many people before and ignored it. You never "bugged" me except for when you just wanted to push for free vore without doing anything in return.

I see in comments you say you're disorganized and forgetful; I would personally be lost without my wordpad document of to-do art, listed by oldest to newest so I can do things in order the fair way. I add a commission or trade to the list as SOON as it's paid for or agreed upon, and pretty much keep it up always to remind me. It's very simple to do but helps tremendously.

[gunmouth.livejournal.com]

Wait... are you sure that was me? I haven't ever paid anyone for a story ever. I always traded for vore junk.

[penanggalan.livejournal.com]

100% positive. :P I set all my messengers to automatically log IMs, so I could try and find it.

[gunmouth.livejournal.com]

No need. If you say you know, then you know.

[stormslegacy.livejournal.com]

I can't defend the artist's behavior (ignoring a customer is always bad.) but I did have similar experiences when commissioned at AC09. I was asked by Featheredragon to draw him a badge of a dragon, only he had no references then. I asked him what kind of dragon, he gave me only info on the horns, telling me to draw how I pictured a dragon. I did, and was nitpicked for over an hour as to why everything I did was wrong.

I was relatively new to commissions and was so scared of having a displeased customer that I didn't argue. It wasn't until TK_Bull who I was chatting with at the time stood up and told him that he got what he asked for. It was in the wee hours of the morning, and Feathered did apologize to me for it the next morning, and thanked me for the badge so I'm not angry about it now or anything but I do remember it. I don't think the artist here is lying at all.

Now that I know better, I would have refunded when I realized I couldn't give the commissioner what he wanted. I might work with feathered again in the future, he is a nice enough guy, I'm pretty sure you just need to establish what you will and won't do, revisions etc and ask for space.

[mukichan.livejournal.com]

http://www.furaffinity.net/user/rinn-kun/

This is his FA account as I have no other contact information other than actually... walking over to his house.

[yamato-iouko.livejournal.com]

In my experience, it's not ignoring so much as he's literally just been that busy. I still have something outstanding with him from FWA 2009, but I understand he has other more critical work to finish, and there was never an agreement on timeframe on the coloring. He had updated me multiple times that he had been working on it, I just tended to have to bug him for updates.

[frazzled-niya.livejournal.com]

sounds like bad form from both ends of this :\

[astraldescent.livejournal.com]

So lemme get this straight, dude posts with proof that Gunmouth is doing him dirty, then Gunmouth, who has done this before, continues to do this, etc comes in and plays damage control by saying things with NO proof whatsoever, and people just lay down and believe it?

I mean, before gunmouth EVER posted someone said that commissioner was easy to work with. Is that person a liar now?

And Gunmouth's posts, 70% of them have been "note me" and then when asked why its because he can't keep records?! AND PEOPLE ARE WILLING TO TAKE HIS WORD? And he admits he was ignoring him but somehow his 'story' makes it a-okay? I understand sympathizing with the artist, people... but come on now. The guy has a history of doing stuff like this apparently, seems to outright refuse to keep a decent recordbook, and is claiming "oh well, he was a rude commissioner so that makes it okay! ... even though I could have denied the commission but I needed money so I didn't." Needing money is not a good reason to take someone's cash then fucking. ignore. them.

There is no excuse for this behavior. Gunmouth chose to take the commish. He claims that the commissioner has always been difficult so he knew what he was getting into (IF indeed the commissioner is difficult, who knows since there is NO proof yet), and he is now using this complaint thread as a way to play catch-up with the people he's stiffed.
I'm not buying the excuses and I don't think anyone else should either. It's not right. You chose to become obligated... fulfill your obligations, or, guess what... stop taking new ones until you can. It's not hard! Hell, even just refunding him like he asked is better than this- and if you not only keep poor records of commissions, but also spend commission money before the commission is closed(thus being unable to refund), then I have don't think anything needs to be said about how 'trustworthy' you or your word is.

Actions speak louder than words, folks, and we should all try to remember that when, potentially, hundreds of dollars are up in the air.

[duster.livejournal.com]

This.

You said it much more eloquently than I could.

[gunmouth.livejournal.com]

Yes, I should have established exactly how things should run between him and me. As I said before, I'm not using my story to pardon my actions, but I still feel it should be mentioned in order to better explain where I was coming from.

[gunmouth.livejournal.com]

Coloring on your pic is half done, actually.

[gunmouth.livejournal.com]

*Facepalms*

Never did I say any of my actions were "A-OK." Nobody's laying down for anything. I explained my side of the story. Dude was annoying, so my plan was to ignore him and finish the job so I would not have to worry about it.

You can say what you want. I have made several mistakes, slacked off, kept things horribly organized, and the ONLY thing I CAN do is try to correct them -- which I am DOING RIGHT NOW. Isn't that one of the purposes to this board... to get artists to get off their asses and DO something about their outstanding commissions? I would HOPE so. Better that than a "hey, this guy fucked up, so let's hate on him for eternity" board. Better to aim towards correcting problems than to let anger stew in a pot.

Hey, but if your goal is to have everyone here stay angry at me, be my guest. :D

[gunmouth.livejournal.com]

Thank you :)

[astraldescent.livejournal.com]

No, but when I see people replying like "Oh I'll avoid that commissioner" and "oh, I see why you did it then" etc, acting like you are in the right, I think people should be jolted back to reality. The reality of the situation is you fucked up and it is not yet resolved. Until it is resolved I think people should be wary of you.

The fact that you reply defensively is very telling. I wasn't name calling, and I am not 'out to get you' or make people hate you for eternity, but rather looking at it from an outsiders point of view, which I honestly think you should try. Here I see multiple people ripped off, avoided, ignored, and the only time that you apparently reply and try to address things is when your butt's on the line? That doesn't say "Trustworthy Artist" to me, I'm sorry.

I'm not out to get you, but like I said, try looking at it from a view other than your own, someone who doesn't know you, and who sees all these people, ripped off, then a sudden "damage control" from an artist who admits to being careless with people's info even when that info is from paying customers, and then that artist tries to cast doubt on the commissioner who was previously stated by an unrelated third party to be lovely to deal with?

It just doesn't seem right to me, and people should be wary until you resolve your disputes, thats all I am saying. If you do right by people and get your stuff straight, I'd have no issue, but you never seemed to try to get stuff worked out until push came to shove.

If you want to continue looking at it from an "I'm being attacked and this person wants to sway everyone against me" stance, thats fine. But I honestly ask you to try looking at it from an outside position, see the timeline of your response and the actual 'events' themselves, how it looks from someone elses chair, and maybe you will see why I'm not saying "It's time to forgive and forget" yet.

[gunmouth.livejournal.com]

Of course I see it from other peoples' points of view. It isn't like I have not commissioned people before, or have had trades that went ignored forever. I had one girl take $100 from me, and she ran off with it, along with other peoples' money, and they've been waiting for 5+ years. I had one guy who owed me a folio and a commission, and he scribbled down some garbage that could barely pass for one of his commissions now. The list goes on...

My replying defensively comes as no surprise. Anyone posted on this board is pretty much auto-villified, and even if they do fix it, the record remains forever. That being the case, anyone who comes to this thread is going to SEE that action WAS taken. People can interpret it as me not taking action until push comes to shove, or they can see that I simply got off my ass and did what I was supposed to. Either way, what really matters is that work gets done.

It's actually good I stopped by. I completely forgot about Rinn-Kun's pic, until that one person mentioned it, and I was able to contact Vera and clear up the misunderstanding we had. I also sent out three rough sketches to people here, and am waiting to see of they approve of the images.

[yamato-iouko.livejournal.com]

Cool to hear. But the point I was trying to get at was: I'm sure you're working, you just have a lot of other stuff that's important you're working on too. Or, in other words: OP just needs to be patient.

[gunmouth.livejournal.com]

OP does, but he is right in that I ignored his postings. When he started tossing messages at me, saying "when is my commission going to be done?" all the past feelings, from when he camped at our table, began to resurface, and I just wanted to complete the image without posting it.

I sent him a scan of the revised rough sketch. Have not heard back from him. Guess he is away.

Nevertheless, thank YOU for your patience with your image. :)

[spiffystuff.livejournal.com]

TBH it seemed to me you posted a LOT of stuff about the commissioner you should have kept private.