Gunmouth (aka. Matt Burt)

[featheredragon.livejournal.com]

I will be updating this thread as circumstances progress. As of right now, I regret to say that people should not commission Gunmouth.   Please read below to see why.

I commissioned him at Anthrocon and he owes me two commissions which I paid for in full and one of which I have yet to give him details for (which was commissioned prior to this year's Anthrocon). 

Since Anthrocon 2010, I've been contact Gunmouth to remind him about my commission from Anthrocon 2010 and ask him when he thought he might finish it.  I just wanted to know when he thought he'd have it done.  That way, I could just wait until then rather then messaging him every month or so.  Indeed, the AC2010 commission was supposed to be finished at Anthrocon he wasn't able to get it done in time.  The rough draft of the drawing was nearly complete but he had to trace it on good paper and ink it.  I said, sure, no problem; I'd rather be patient and have you do it right than rush to get it done at the con.  If you want to take it come and are ok with that then I'm fine with that to. 

Since I've had problems communicating with him in the past prior to AC2010, I made sure to tell him that while I'm fine with being patient, even several months if necessary, it drives me nuts when I get no response to my inquires about the status of my commission.  I made sure Gunmouth knew this and asked him to please reply and asked him if he could do this and he said sure. 

Now, since the AC2010 drawing was close to being done, I thought he should have some news to tell me around a month after AC but he hasn't attempted to contact me or reply to my messages despite the fact that his FurAffinity account is active (he posts journals, favs artwork, replies to others comments on his FA page, etc.). 

In short, the problem is that he doesn't read my FA messages and doesn't respond to them.  I know he doesn't read my FA messages because FA allows you to check if they've been opened by the recipient.  He never, ever checks them.  I've even posted directly on the front of his FA page to get his attention and still he ignores me.   If he has time to reply to comments on his FA page and fave pictures and even after almost a month since AC2010 he still hasn't replied, well, there's no excuse.   It's not complicated or hard for him to reply to my asking him for an idea when an almost complete commission will be finished--in fact, it would have taken him mere seconds to reply but he didn't.  That lack of responsiveness does not inspire confidence or trust. 

I've been keeping track of the dates when I've messaged him since AC2010.  I messaged him on July 4, July 19, July 29, July 30, and today.  I've sent messages to his Furaffinity mailbox, posts on directly on his Furaffinity page, to his e-mail, MSN, ICQ, and AIM accounts, and on his Deviantart page.  At first, I thought to wait two weeks each time and give him a chance to reply since he's busy but it's become apparent that he has no intention of doing so and is in fact purposely ignoring me for reasons only he knows.

Although he seemed sincere in person at Anthrocon about his intentions I can no-longer trust him because his subsequent behavior is not that of a responsible business person or human being.   I see no reason why I should trust him to finish the commissions I paid him for if he willfully ignores me without explanation.

It is for this reason that today, after a month of trying contact him and waiting for a reply, I decided to ask Gunmouth for a refund.  I thought it would be best since I know I'm only going to get more frustrated if I attempt to wait longer and based on my experiences with other people I think it's unlikely he's going to reform his behavior to satisfy me.  So, rather than drag-on this problem I just decided to ask for a refund.  I have little sympathy for people think it's alright to ignore paying customers. 

Today, on his FA page and by e-mail I wrote: 

"No offense but if you're not going to reply to my messages for an update I want a refund. Please send $190USD that I paid you to my PayPal account (*****@******). I've been as patient as I'm going to be. Thx.

I'm also adding you to the Livejournal artists_beware thread that I'll be updating until this is resolved. You're nice enough in person and I know you're busy but I can't work with someone who never replies. "

I think it's unfortunate that it's come to this because I'm perfectly happy to wait for him to be able to finish them (and I really do want Gunmouth to finish them) but only if he maintains a dialogue with me when I infrequently ask him how it's coming along and when he expects it will be done.  Otherwise, who's to say he's not a crook who's trying to rip me off?!  A person's word is only as good as their actions. 

I've got commissions still ongoing from 2008 from other artists without issue and the only difference between them and Gunmouth is that they actually respond--maybe not always right away, usually within the week but certainly within a month.  A healthy dialogue is important!  Gunmouth, for all his artistic merit, has unfortunately failed to keep in contact with this customer.  In short, as far as I can tell, he's being irresponsible at best and criminal at worst.  After all, if you pay someone for a service they have a responsibility to keep you informed and reply within a reasonable time period. 


Here is a list of some of his online locations though which I've attempted to communicate with him:
http://www.furaffinity.net/user/gunmouth/
http://gunmouth.deviantart.com/
MSN: knockemupstinky(at sign thing)hotmail.com
AIM: badvibes13
# ICQ: 4337720
E-mail: (I'm not listing it for privacy reasons)

Other places where he's online:
http://gunnmouth.livejournal.com/
http://inkbunny.net/GuNMouTH

Note: The names, links, and contact info mentioned in this post are in the public domain and found online on the internet so I have no issue listing them here. 

Will be updating this thread as things progress.

[[UPDATE: August 2, 2010, Current Status of Dispute: in process of being resolved. Link to my reply to Gunmouth's reply to my initial post: http://community.livejournal.com/artists_beware/356583.html?thread=11512295#t11512295 ]]

[[UPDATE: August 3, 2010, Current Status of Dispute: in process of being resolved (making headway, cautiously optimistic); Link to my update: http://community.livejournal.com/artists_beware/356583.html?thread=11548647#t11548647 ]]

[[UPDATE: August 6, 2010, Current Status of Dispute: resolved.  Link to my update: http://community.livejournal.com/artists_beware/356583.html?thread=11609831#t11609831 ]]

[[EDIT: April 5, 2011: Didn't change anything but removed my e-mail address and replaced it with *****@****.  I don't like it being so easily in the public domain; should have thought of that at the time but was preoccupied.]]

[[ UPDATE: 2012 JAN 07:

SUMMARY: Gunmouth is a complex person and seems decent and friendly enough in person.  His artwork is superb.  However, new commissioners are advised to restrict themselves to at convention commissions only.  If commissioners decide to commission him for a take-home, they certainly should only pay a small deposit upfront and the remainder only after the commission is finished.  Unfortunately, Gunmouth, like some artists, is not particularly reliable when it comes to responding to commissioners via the internet.  Although I think we both tried our best to work together, speaking for myself, I simply became too uncomfortable waiting and waiting and having difficulty getting replies from him.  For his part, I'm guessing he became frustrated with my attention to detail for the commission--although, I though we had resolved that and I did try my best to accommodate his needs.  

Unwilling to prolong my frustration, yesterday, I asked for a refund.  Gunmouth thankfully replied the same day and has refunded me 4/5ths of the total, and will refund the remaining 1/5th after he has more money in his Paypal.  I regret that will never have the commission completed as it looked very promising in sketch form.  As I explained to Gunmouth yesterday, I simply become far to frustrated when artists delay and fail to respond to messages.  I don't send them often but when I do, I don't like waiting weeks or months for replies--it just doesn't inspire confidence in the artist.  It made me feel like I was being scammed and lied to or at the very least constantly being bumped to he bottom of the priority pile--despite the fact that I had paid in full already--such that it was questionable whether the art would every actually get done.  Feeling my mood and confidence gradually deteriorate, I decided asking for a refund from now was the best thing I could do to prevent what might become an eventual explosion of anger on my part which of course would not help matters.  So, I'm quite grateful that Gunmouth responded promptly to the refund request and I look forward to getting the refund completed.  I regret we couldn't make this work.

LONGER EXPLAINATION:

One commission was still outstanding.  It was supposed to be finished by Anthrocon 2011 in June but all Gunmouth had was a sketch to show me.  It was enough however that I felt that progress was being made.  A few months later, I contacted Gunmouth to let him know that I would be attending MFF2011 in November and that I could pick up the completed commission if he was able to get it done by then.  At MFF, Gunmouth showed me the sketch and asked if there were any changes that I'd like made; he apologized for not having it finished but said he had been too busy to get to it.  Having doubts as to whether he actually wanted and intended to finish my commission I asked him if he wanted to finish it or not and he said yes.  He asked me if I wanted any alterations made and we made some small alterations to the sketch.  I then asked him for a guess as to a rough date of completion.  Gunmouth said he'd probably have something to show me around mid December.  I waited until December 28th before I asked him for an update regarding the commission.  Receiving no response, I tried again a week later but still no reply.  Three days later, after noticing that three other commissioners had posted shouts on Gunmouth's FA asking for updates for their commissions and complaining about the lack of communication, I finally had enough and sent Gunmouth a request for a refund.  The same day Gunmouth refunded 4/5ths of the money paid to my Paypal and messaged me saying he'll send the rest when he has more money is his Paypal.  So, for the moment things are alright.  

However, I am disappointed that I wont be getting that commission from Gunmouth.  The sketch as looking promising and we seemed to be getting a long well enough--although I know better than to say we were friends.  Although Gunmouth has been better at communicating with me since the opening of this thread over a year ago, there have been a few occasions where he simply did not reply at all.  

Essentially, it's the combination of waiting so long but especially the spotty communication that caused me to decide to ask for a refund.  As I explained to Gunmouth, I find it much too frustrating and time consuming to have to constantly pursue artists when they don't answer or deliver on time.  Compared to some other artists I've commissioned, Gunmouth has not been particularly communicative online and so I didn't have what I felt was a healthy rapport with him.   

At MFF, trying to take Gunmouth's needs into consideration, I told him that I'd be alright waiting for the commission to be finished by Anthrocon 2012 if he couldn't complete it by December.  However, as I have explained to him previously, my waiting is contingent upon the artist replying to messages.  As a commissioner I simply got to the point where I questioned if the commission would ever be completed.  Although my dealings with Gunmouth have revealed that he can be a pretty decent person with interesting perspectives and useful advice, I simply don't know him well enough trust him to finish it given the way things have been going.

So, that is the state of affairs.  Prospective commissioners should feel free to commission him but just be cautious and I think everyone will be happier if commissioners limit themselves to at-con commissions only.  

Gunmouth, if you end up reading this update, I want you to know I appreciate you trying to work with me but I think we both agree it wasn't working and that my asking for a refund was the best thing.  I know now I wasn't a perfect commissioner initially--with respect to giving too much detail with the commission--but I have listened to you and other artists and have made things simpler and shorter and I continue to work on things.  It has been a learning experience I think for both of us.  I'm glad at least that even if we can't get the commission finished that at least we can end on a semi-positive note. 

[[ UPDATE: 2012 FEB 10]]

Got rest of refund about a week ago.
Not sure if Gunmouth was reading my messages or only their titles.
Offered to let him keep the rest of the refund in exchange for the incomplete drawing (the existing sketch version) since it seemed the most mutually beneficial and he said he needed money.  However, Gunmouth did not respond to that which is fine if disappointing.
He is really a poor communicator.  Trying to contact him is like pulling teeth.
I think he was just frustrated with the level of detail I wanted.  I tried my best to work with him and even asked him at MFF2011 if he wanted to do the drawing or not with no hard feelings either way.
At-con commissions are probably ok but would not recommend him for take homes.
Things could have ended on a better note but at least we didn't argue.
Situation is now fully resolved and closed. 

[[ UPDATE: 2012 JUN @ Anthrocon ]]

Spoke with Gunmouth in person.  Wanted to try and patch things up as I felt we hadn't ended on the best of terms. I think we are both happier for the attempt.  We talked about a few things and Gunmouth mentioned that the reason he hadn't finished my commission is that he realized that he doesn't like drawing hyper characters.  Every time he tried to work on it he ended up working on something else.  I also asked him why he wasn't always replying to my messages.  He said his working style is more results oriented and that he prefers to only contact people when he has something to show them.  So, our conversation all-in-all was positive. I asked Gunmouth about the possibility of paying him $20 to get the sketch he's already done and he said I could contact him prior to my next convention and he will bring the sketch so I can pay to get it.  However, due to the fact that he doesn't enjoy drawing hypers (which I said I totally understand) and our disparate working styles (ie. concerning our views on online communication) I haven't any plans to commission Gunmouth again or to resume my uncompleted commission.  So, all-in-all, I think we patched things up so that we both feel at ease. 

Comments

[emilylorange.livejournal.com]

What impresses me here is not only did the artist try very, very hard to shame the commissioner for his choice of subject matter to deflect scrutiny from where it belongs, but the community was pretty happy to eat it up.

If you thought the subject matter was so disgusting that you shouldn't draw it, don't take his money. See how easy that is?

[duster.livejournal.com]

I didn't get this either.

I'd be fucking LIVID if the artist I was paying to draw for me tried to excuse their irresponsibility by saying what I want them to draw is omgdisgustingandweird AND THEY WERE A PAIN IN THE ASS TOO ALONG WITH BEING A FREAK AND PAYING ME TO DRAW FREAKY SHIT.

The commissioner is paying you to draw, not to dick around and then tell him/her the subject is disgusting and weird and that's why he/she should totally let you off for ignoring him/her. If you were that uncomfortable with it, then say no! I don't care how bad you need the money, once you take it, you deliver. That's that.

I'm shocked and very disappointed in the people allowing the artist to drag the commissioner through the mud to excuse their irresponsibility and flakiness.

[murdercrow.livejournal.com]

uhm... he didn't say anything negative about the subject matter. Considering that GuNMoutH is ALSO Cownugget, AND he's very open about being a voraphile, I highly doubt that he would throw stones in glass houses re: subject matter.

Also, I'm not "eating up" anything he said. If I were in his position, then frankly, I'd have been sorely tempted to ignore him as well. I'm totally open to comment and criticism on the very rare occasions that I do any sort of work ("very rare" meaning I've never even done any commissions, so IANAL applies... or is it IANAA?) but when people nitpick like that, it's less a case of ensuring your final product is satisfactory and more a case of "I want to make this but I'm too lazy to learn how to draw/write, so I'll have somebody else make this for me." Commissions are a two-way street. The artist has to have some input as well--asking somebody lesser-known with a different style or less experience to draw like Zen is a bit rude, as well as sorta impossible. Why, then, is it okay to ask somebody to draw in what would be YOUR personal style?

Finally, he's not making excuses for anything. What he IS doing is saying WHY he ignored the OP like he did--namely, that the OP was incredibly impatient and nitpicky. He admitted that he was in the wrong, and apologized. So why are you treating him as if he's saying... well, "the subject is disgusting and weird and that's why he/she should totally let you off for ignoring him/her."

As an aside, I met him at AC '10 and I bought the first Cownugget CD for 30 bucks, and preordered the 2nd one because it wasn't available at the con. The first volume turned out to be mostly stuff he'd already posted to FA and the second has suffered delays beyond what he said at AC, but ultimately that's a case of caveat emptor--I'm not happy with the purchase (at least of the first CD), but I'm not going to begrudge him my money or pester him for a refund, either. Yeah, I wish I hadn't spent so much money on the first CD, but the second one is something that I am anticipating--PATIENTLY.

[astraldescent.livejournal.com]

The OP said they made it clear they would like communication, and they gave him two weeks between communication attempts before a month had passed with no communication whatsoever. I do not see it as being impatient if the person makes it clear that they just want the comm. lines to be open, but that they don't care about waiting. The OP has said many times its not about the wait, its about being outright ignored.

If someone is annoying to you, don't take the commission. Gunmouth says he has experience with this person before and didn't like them, so why allow him to commish something again? Needing money is NOT ever an excuse for poor service and being outright ignored.

he also posted details of the commission that really make it seem like he's shaming the OP- I dont have the quote handy but I believe "Giant lactating breasts" and "Balls that must hang at least a foot" were involved and those, in context, sounded harsh and derogatory.

I'm not going to wholly address the artistic part of your post, since theres no way to know if the OP was simply providing lots of references and being specific with what they wanted, or if they were trying to alter the artists' style- but I will say that in doing requests, even for free, it is NOT uncommon for me to ask for, and be provided, a reference from the requester of the kind of style and look they like- not to alter my own style whatsoever, but to know what they're going for as an end result- and I think these references would be helpful in such an expensive commish to ensure the commissioner was satisfied.

Considering the history here, and taking in the facts as I see them, I see these as excuses. Why would he smear the OP so much if he wasn't trying to excuse his actions or gain sympathy? :/

I hope Gunmouth can make things right, but if its common for people to be waiting for ages/ignored due to being deemed 'annoying', etc.. I don't think I'd personally commission them, since I like communication without chasing after someone, too.

[gunmouth.livejournal.com]

it isn't just because I needed money. Ever have someone upset you, and the next time you see them, you are not as upset as you were before? THAT is what happened. Despite the nitpicking, he IS a nice guy (though when he told my fiancee that she didn't know how to draw boobs right, that wasn't so nice), which counterbalances the nitpickiness...

By the time the con was reaching its end, I had already done half the work. It was THEN that he started steadily asking for more and more corrections. So I thought to myself, "Better hurry and get this guy's pic done, or I'll be caught in a neverending loop of corrections. If I HAD finished the picture as soon as I had planned, this whole thread would NOT be here.

So WHAT do you want from me? I am not ignoring him anymore. I admitted that I was WRONG, AND I apologized. I did more work on his sketch, and am waiting for his approval. I even contacted other people in this thread, and am taking care of their business. I ADMITTED to being horribly organized, forgetful, extremely slow, and procrastinating. You even said you wanted me to see things from the commissioner's perspective-- which I DO, and I even mentioned that.

Will you NOT be SATISFIED until a gaggle of people post, "I AM MAD AT GUNMOUTH AND WILL NOT COMMISSION HIM EVER AGAIN!!" ? It really seems that way, with people getting all upset that "the crowd is EATING THIS UP," as if that somehow ruins your day.

The fact is that MOST of my commissions get done just fine, and MOST people come back for more. True, some peoples' commissions slip by, but MOST of them I keep in decent communication with, and I work it out with them in SOME way. AND YES, SOMETIMES A FEW OF THEM POST HERE, BUT THEN I FIX IT. POINT IS, NO MATTER WHAT THE COMPLICATION, I *DO* EVENTUALLY FINISH THE JOB. On top of that, I do a GOOD job.

[astraldescent.livejournal.com]

It's not about me being happy :/ I'm discussing the situation and sharing my opinion on it. I don't see why you're looking at it this way. Not everyone has to like you, and not everyone has to like the situation, but its no real loss to you if some people don't commission you.

I'm just discussing it as stuff comes up in the thread. It's not about me being happy or not, or wanting people to hate you or not (cause really, I don't care what people think of you), its just me discussing and sharing my thoughts :/ if you're taking that much offense to the fact that I, personally, dislike the situation then I am sorry.

However, I'd appreciate it if you tried to express yourself without the use of capslock and personal jeers like "as if it ruins your day" and such. Since you're making this personal when its really, really not. So, I'm sorry that people discussing this, and refusing to forgive you at the drop of a hat, upsets you.. but capslocking and jeering at me is really not going to make anything any better, especially where my opinion of you is concerned, since for some reason you're focusing a lot on me.

[gunmouth.livejournal.com]

Sorry for using capslock. I do it to emphasize a point... I would bold the text, but... I don't know how to do that.

The reason why I seem to take it personally is because I like to address any issue that someone has with me. In the case of this board, I am doing everything I can to try to fix the problem, and the OP is so far satisfied with my actions... and yet some people seem upset, unsatisfied, and even go as far as to say that I only get things done when push comes to shove, and that I'll slack off later. :P

I realize that some may have their doubts, but if they choose to speculate details about me publicly, then I will answer to them publicly. If I have the ability to alleviate any negative opinions of me, then I shall do so.

[astraldescent.livejournal.com]

On a slightly related note, I've said multiple times I hope you can make things right and I believe I wished you luck in doing so once :/
In fact, I said I hoped you could make things right in the very post you're replying to, I just said that I personally would not commission you because I, personally, do not like "MOST" as a 'success rate' of getting finished in a timely manner.

But still, once again, I hope you can make things right, just realize that not everyone has to like you, and its not as personal as you're trying to make it, but rather the fact that I am poor and I prefer to commission people from whom I will see what I paid for BEFORE I lose the chance for any refund or recourse, via paypal or otherwise because I have been ripped off before. (obviously, this does not apply for labor intensive things like fursuits and etc) This is why I -rarely- if ever commission people and I get a time estimate before entering into any agreement.

[gunmouth.livejournal.com]

I understand that. This is why I now only charge someone once the work is half completed. It has worked out very well so far :)... at least for the customers. I have had a few situations where the commissioners never return to check on their commissions, and thus I am stuck with a half-done picture of some... thing. I figure I can always change it into something else later, if they never contact me online... :P

[emilylorange.livejournal.com]

2.) Several shirtless photos of himself, also at different angles (though, considering the giant lactating boobs, hyper penis, giant balls that must sag a foot between the legs, and wings, I don't see how a body of his size could hold or be seen behind such details)

Private details like this? Have no need to be in this debate. That's an extreme breach of a customer's privacy. It's not Gunmouth's place to tell us the details of Feather's commission, that's up to Feather's discretion. He could have easily explained that Feather is a difficult and picky customer, and a nuisance, and even mention that the subject matter was 'difficult' 'adult in nature' and 'extremely detailed', without being an egregious dick about it.

So unbelievably unprofessional to put up in front of a large, public community, without permission. I couldn't believe I'd actually read that.

But the customer being annoying makes that ok? .......Allrighty.

[gunmouth.livejournal.com]

Never was the subject matter "omgdisgustingandweird." Never did I say he should let me off. Never did I dick around. Never did I excuse my irresponsibility to him. If you actually read through my posts, you would see this.


I was angry at Feather because he sat at our table and covered our merchandise for literally hours. I was mad that he insulted Kami's artistic ability. That anger had subsided by the time Anthrocon came around (Yeah, people can forgive others! Imagine that!). Everything was FINE during the con. Only towards the end did he start to ask for more and more corrections, as if he was just making up new ones. I wanted to finish the picture before he could continue to do so.

It seems like everyone thinks that I foolishly took on a commission that I did not want to do. I have had to explain this over and over, and yet people still think it was all over money and the subject matter.

Is it really that hard to understand that I simply got over what he did, and was willing to continue things in a friendly manner? That is what happened. YES I foolishly ignored him, and I apologized, and am now finishing his work.

Does this information satisfy you, or do you still have a problem...?

[astraldescent.livejournal.com]

I also don't get this :(
If you want to be thought of as responsible, then sure, come in and use the thread to help patch communications with unsatisfied people, but is the mudslinging necessary?

Its confusing to me since I don't typically see people being so accommodating in these posts. I guess having this opinion means I want people to hate the artist for all eternity though.

Also seconding and agreeing with Genkigami here, as well.

[gunmouth.livejournal.com]

It was never the subject matter. I draw weird porn all the time. Giant boobs and dicks don't phase me. Having someone insult my fiancee, linger at our table for hours, cover our merchandise for hours, and nitpick about the DETAILS of said boobs and penis... THAT phases me.

At AC, it wasn't so bad as it was at MFF. He seemed to be TRYING to reserve himself. so I though, "Hey, he's trying to be cool this time. I admire that. I will forget about the past and do his image."

And guess what... I DID do his image. All I had to do was ink it.

But as the con went on, he started asking for more changes. I then decided I would just get the picture done to avoid hearing him wanting more changes. In doing this, I ignored him. I admitted I was wrong in doing so, and I apologized, and I am currently resolving it all with him.

I was not trying to "shame him" at all. I was telling my side of the story, and leaving nothing out. I was showing how annoying he had been to better explain why I would even THINK of ignoring him (which AGAIN, I admitted to being wrong, and apologized for).

ONE person said that they would not want Feather to commission them. I hardly think that qualifies for "the community eating it up."

[emilylorange.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry, but your righteous defense has yet to explain why you felt it necessary to describe his choice of subject matter in detail.

But please, we'd all like to know exactly how traumatizing this experience has been for you. Really. You poor thing.

[murdercrow.livejournal.com]

Uhh... To demonstrate just HOW nitpicky and unnecessary all the details he provided were? To provide a more complete picture of what kind of experience he had with the OP?

There's no point in including details of the ref sheet that are typically *never seen.* I don't include a detailed shot of my internal organs in my own character's ref sheet. The fact the OP DID include those details implies just how nitpicky he is.

I'm not saying that he should've included so much detail in what exactly was in the ref sheets, but on the other hand, I'm not going to begrudge him for being blunt, either.

Ultimately, I think that a lot of people here that are so pissy are forgetting that ultimately, we're all human, and that includes GuNMoutH. We all make mistakes, yeah, but at least the artist is owning up to them and admitting his mistakes, which is a HELL of a lot more than I've seen other artists do.

[emilylorange.livejournal.com]

Again, you can provide description of your half of the incident without potentially humiliating your customer.

If you work a register and the customer accuses you of short changing them, you don't need to provide a full description of the calorie intake of their purchase in order to support your position. It's superfluous information that contributes nothing.

I'm 'pissy' over a lack of professionalism displayed. It does seem, just from the constant stream of responses here, that Feather could be a very needy and intrusive presence. I agree. But despite your need to defend the accused, I still don't see any reason whatsoever to divulge potentially embarrassing and completly irrelevant details about the agreement.

[featheredragon.livejournal.com]

Thanks for agreeing with me about keeping some info private. :3

Just want to take a sec. to clarify about 'needy and intrusive'. I'm not needy and intrusive, I'm just 'me'. (And, I did notice you said 'could be' and not 'is' and only in response to someone else's post so I'm not offended. :3 I just thought I'd make that clear 'cuz occasionally some people get the wrong idea when I write a reply--words, they are an imperfect medium and easy to misunderstand sometimes.)

In the interests of brevity, I'll forgo my longer explanation and settle for medium length. Basically, I can see how some people could choose to categorize my attention to detail as being 'needy' and 'invasive' but these terms do not accurately describe the situation. 'Needy' has the connotation that I'm desperate and 'intrusive' that I'm pushy or something. At the very least, it makes me sound like I haven't got the common sense to approach people politely and properly which isn't true. I have a 'passion' for furry art, but I've never lost track of my manners and I'm not a total recluse without any social graces. If people think I'm doing something wrong, all people have to do is point it out.

I was just trying communicate to the artist what I wanted and talk them quickly though the important points in the reference material I had and wanted to give them--which was especially important because there was so much of it, not all of it was relevant to the commissions at hand, and I didn't want them to get lost. Explanations take some time to do but I didn't think I was too long, just longer than average. Anyway, as I said in another comment, I know my reference material needs work; it's a work in progress.

If an artist thinks I'm doing something wrong or they can suggest how I can better interact with them, they are always welcome to tell me.

I know artists at conventions to make money and I've never tried to monopolize their time. In fact, if it's taking me awhile to finish explaining what I want and I notice that other customers what to look at or buy something, I'll stop talking or move to the side a bit and let them talk to the artist because I know I'll be there awhile longer and they shouldn't have to wait that long because of me. So you see I do try to accommodate people and that's one example.

One could make the reverse argument to that some artists are too pushy sometimes because they just want to get your money quickly, shoo you off as fast as possible, and get more from the next person. It can make you feel like you're being intimidated or are on some sort of assembly line which is uncomfortable. You're paying for a service and for something specific. You don't want to feel like your on an assembly line, rush rush rush, and no quality control over what you get. I don't doubt the art will be excellently drawn but I do like to have some say in the details of it. Definitely, there has to be a balance there and I agree that it can be a fine line. I think it's the responsibility of both the customer and the artists to work together in this matter so that both are happy. (This does not apply however to Gunmouth and Kami because both were very accommodating by letting me take the time I needed to get though my descriptions of the commissions so I didn't think anything was amiss. They certainly weren't pushy. I didn't learn that Gunmouth felt upset about it until he posted here on LJ. Now that I know they'd like me to be briefer and quicker, I'll make sure to be with them if they are ever willing to do further commissions for me.)

[featheredragon.livejournal.com]

Err, just want to say I've never given away nude photos. oO
Shirtless is one thing but I'm not giving him or anyone else pictures of my groin, lol..

And while it's not really relevant, as a matter of interest, I usually have a generic package of reference pictures I give to artists, so, it's not like all the pictures were relevant to this particular commission. And furthermore, most of the images are actually drawings of others' characters. I see something I like that someone else drew, I take it, and I use that as an example to show an artist I'm commissioning.

[ocelotish]

I see something I like that someone else drew, I take it, and I use that as an example to show an artist I'm commissioning.

I'm not commenting on the rest of the situation, but that seems really odd to me. I imagine that you have a character sheet or two, or at least a couple of good references of your character. It seems like that, along with a little information on what parts of the character you consider most important, would make more sense for everyone involved. (By details, I mean that to get your face in the dragon, you might say I like to see my high cheekbones and small forehead.)

It seems like there may be an issue with too much detail that the artist can't use (I don't know, but that's just the impression I'm getting) and it seems like the pictures by other artists are the ones that could be cut out really easily. If you have a good reference sheet of your character, you wouldn't really need them for the details of your characters. So I guess it seems like either detail oriented (Draw the calves like this!) or the more general style you want the artist to draw in. In either case that seems odd to me. I draw the way I draw and I can try alter it a bit if there's something in particular you want different, but I'd be upset if you wanted me to draw every body part like a different artist. If you like the style of the other artists' pictures, I'd be wondering why you were showing me those and telling me to do it that instead of just commissioning the original artist.

I've never seen your reference package, but that's just my thought from your description and the other comments in the thread. In light of my lack of personal experience, please take my thoughts with massive amounts of salt.

[featheredragon.livejournal.com]

Actually, your comment here makes a lot of sense. I can totally see why you feel confused by my approach so I'll try and elaborate for you.

Ok, you mentioned why don't I have a reference picture for my character? Well, for a couple a reasons. I don't because I haven't completely settled on one specific design. I have different variations of my character. I also like to frequently modify my character (as in have one artist draw it this way and another draw it that way). While I agree that a reference sheet definitely has its merits such a sheet would be too limiting for my intent since I like variation.

I can anticipate your next question: If I like variation, why then don't I just let the artist draw me how they like? ^^ Well that's what I do.....but the answer is more complicated than that.

Firstly, there are some details that remain constant (such as my horn style, spikes on elbows and heels, long hair). These are really easy to explain.

Secondly, some details are optional (meaning that I sometimes want them or sometimes don't or it's up to the artist if they want to include them or not). Examples include, a spike on the end of the tail, scales vs feathers, whether I'm wearing a spiked collar or not, etc.. These secondary details can sometimes be a little more tricky to explain; for example, one variation I like is scales down the inside of the neck, down the front of the torso, in the groin and inner-leg region and underside of the tail. Notice now that while the example I just used is a rather simple concept, it took a lot of words to explain; that's partly why my descriptions tend to bloat-up a bit. To help speed-up communicating my intent, that's when I usually provide artists with sample pictures to refer to ('cuz a picture's worth a thousand words, you know?).

Thirdly, I find the most difficult part to communicate is things like the sizes of body parts, proportions, and the specifics of some shapes. For example, in the real world (never mind the endless possibilities of the imaginary one), breasts come in different forms; some are more tear-dropped, some more busty, some more droopy, etc. but my point is that they don't just come in one shape. Other examples include describing body-build and hyper vs large. It's can be very challenging to communicate such aesthetic concepts succinctly which I try but which still remains a challenge.

Forth, after all the above is taken care of, I may have a particular pose or scene in mind. I may want them wearing certain clothing. I may have a second character in the drawing that I need to describe. Maybe I want a character to have a certain expression on their face. Etc..

The amount of detail I give varies depending on the specific commission I have in mind and any limitations as to what an artist is willing to do.

[Post continued. . . ]

[featheredragon.livejournal.com]

(. . . continued post)

Bottom line is, often, there's a lot of data that needs to be communicated and, while I try my best, I find it very challenging to condense it. That's why I try to make it easier for the artist by providing (1) a description of the theme/pose/intent of the drawing, (2) a description of the character or characters, (3) a package of reference pictures with annotated text which serve as examples for clarification purposes, and (4) by not just dropping off all this info until I have a chance to talk to them and walk them though it quickly so they can pick up on the most important details, ask my questions, and so they don't get lost--plus, it cuts down on the time it would take the artist to familiarize themselves with the information on their own.

When I'm finished explaining, I always ask if the artist has any questions and is ok with the commission.

And even when all is said and done that doesn't include any changes that may be asked for or made in the intermediary stage of the drawing; the stage where the artists draws a concept sketch and asks you what you think and might want changed.

Generally that's how I approach the commission process. While it's not a bad system, I know it's not perfect either and it needs more work, and I am trying to improve it.

If (and it happens sometimes), an artist feels overwhelmed and can't understand what all this info means and what I want or hasn't the time to go though it; then all they need do is tell me and I'll abbreviate it to one a one page description and a couple pictures or otherwise decide it's not going to work and not commission them. While I am constantly trying to shorten everything as much as possible, I don't always automatically provide that level of brevity to artists at the onset of a transaction because that would mean that by necessity I would be prematurely (and perhaps unnecessarily) be forced to generalize and doing so would be at the expense of details. Certain subtleties that I could have otherwise brought to artists' attention would have to be sacrificed and lost. The advantage of being brief is that it saves time but at the expense accuracy. A briefer description relies much more heavily on an artists interpretation of your description and the danger is that that interpretation may not result in as accurate a rendering as desired. For example, my idea of "large" is rarely the same as someone else's idea of "large".

Relative language and brevity only takes you so far. ^^ This ties into the concept of "style" you mention. You asked why I don't just commission artists who drew the exmaple pictures I'm using instead of getting commissions from other artists and over details. Well, to answer your question, yes, actualy I do indeed do that. In fact, I would never commission someone who's style I didn't like. Regardless of whether the particular artist I'm dealing with at the time is the creator of an example picture I use, hopefully now you can understand that I'm not unhappy with their style and I'm not trying to change their style. Rather, all I attempt to do is bring their attention to aspects of the drawing that are extraneous to their style. Occasionally, I suppose it can be argued that there is some overlap, but really it's just the same concept as showing an artist a drawing of your character that another artist drew and asking that artist to draw your character in their style. In other words, I have certain preferences in mind and I try to explain those as best I can. Since I don't have a reference sheet that I can use for that purpose, I must by necessity fall back on the approach I'm using.

Anyway, I could go on but hopefully that helps clarify things for you. :3

[ocelotish]

I can see what you mean now, but if you don't mind some friendly advice, it might be good to work out the simplest character sheet you can. This would be without the optional features or ones that you change more often, but would include the details of the character that are more subtle/subjective. That way the artist can see some of the details you're talking about without overloading them. Then you can say, "This is my character, but it has some other features if you want to include them" or if you decide to change part of the design you can just say "Oh and I'd also like scales like you see in this other picture, I just didn't have that put on the character sheet." That will make it seem more like a set design instead of having the artist frankenstein all the parts together and be a way of presenting the details without overwhelming the artist at the time. Artists will draw details differently, but they're on the reference, they'll see that they're there without you going into as much detail (though you may want to say that you're very detail-oriented so they should stick to the reference).

Also (while some people may disagree) it might be easier to just say you want optional details A, D, and maybe H (without going into details B, C, or E-G). It removes some freedom, but it might help with keeping things briefer. (If you do this already, please disregard that.)

Rather, all I attempt to do is bring their attention to aspects of the drawing that are extraneous to their style. Occasionally, I suppose it can be argued that there is some overlap, but really it's just the same concept as showing an artist a drawing of your character that another artist drew and asking that artist to draw your character in their style.

I don't know what you're saying here. It seems to be "I draw attention to parts that are unnecessary to their style" which really doesn't make sense to me. Do you mean things that aren't usually in their style? (Like drawing thinner eyes when they usually do them rounder?) Then you say "But I just ask them to draw it in their own style." It just seems like you're trying to say two things at once.

[featheredragon.livejournal.com]

No, I don't mind friendly advice at all. It's appreciated. :3

Regarding your 1st paragraph,
Yes, in a way, that's the direction I've been headed. I have thought to make an ultra-brief character description sheet (glad you reminded me) which could be used in a pinch. It's a bit difficult because every situation is a bit different and I try to customize each to an extent--but you are very correct that I could in all cases make an all-purpose basic reference sheet. I think having that coupled with a longer version that would complement it is probably the best way to go. I just find that often so much easier said than done. Your advice rings true though and I'll definitely keep it in mind and try and use it :3

Heh, yeah, I even thought my sentences you quoted could use some work. But I figured, yeah, close enough, I wrote a big long detailed explanation and it's late and I'm tired so blah. lol

Ok, let me see if I can explain this better. ^^

What I mean is: When an artist draws something, you normally can tell they drew it. Every drawing is different but they all have a common 'style'. I attempt to point out details to artists that, if changed, would not destroy their style but would only change the content of the drawing. For example, whether you character is thin or muscular, or has big or small breasts, changing those details does not in any significant way impact the artist's normal style. It may be a departure from the content they normally draw (because maybe they don't draw hyper characters normally) but it wont be a departure from their drawing style. Details might change, but style remains constant. That's what I meant by "aspects of the drawing that are extraneous to their style".

Hopefully I've explained it better this time :3

[featheredragon.livejournal.com]

In other words, it will still look like it was drawn by them. I'm only trying to influence the content.

[gunmouth.livejournal.com]

I just explained the situation as it was. I admitted I was wrong, worked deals out with the commissioner, and he is satisfied.

It really hasn't been traumatizing at all. Feather explained his situation, and I explained mine. I apologized for ignoring him, he apologized to me for blocking business at my fiancee's table, etc etc.

So why the mocking tone?