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artistsbeware2_archive2010-07-31 07:29 pm
featheredragon.livejournal.com) wrote in artistsbeware2_archive2010-07-31 07:29 pm
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Gunmouth (aka. Matt Burt)
I will be updating this thread as circumstances progress. As of right now, I regret to say that people should not commission Gunmouth. Please read below to see why.
I commissioned him at Anthrocon and he owes me two commissions which I paid for in full and one of which I have yet to give him details for (which was commissioned prior to this year's Anthrocon).
Since Anthrocon 2010, I've been contact Gunmouth to remind him about my commission from Anthrocon 2010 and ask him when he thought he might finish it. I just wanted to know when he thought he'd have it done. That way, I could just wait until then rather then messaging him every month or so. Indeed, the AC2010 commission was supposed to be finished at Anthrocon he wasn't able to get it done in time. The rough draft of the drawing was nearly complete but he had to trace it on good paper and ink it. I said, sure, no problem; I'd rather be patient and have you do it right than rush to get it done at the con. If you want to take it come and are ok with that then I'm fine with that to.
Since I've had problems communicating with him in the past prior to AC2010, I made sure to tell him that while I'm fine with being patient, even several months if necessary, it drives me nuts when I get no response to my inquires about the status of my commission. I made sure Gunmouth knew this and asked him to please reply and asked him if he could do this and he said sure.
Now, since the AC2010 drawing was close to being done, I thought he should have some news to tell me around a month after AC but he hasn't attempted to contact me or reply to my messages despite the fact that his FurAffinity account is active (he posts journals, favs artwork, replies to others comments on his FA page, etc.).
In short, the problem is that he doesn't read my FA messages and doesn't respond to them. I know he doesn't read my FA messages because FA allows you to check if they've been opened by the recipient. He never, ever checks them. I've even posted directly on the front of his FA page to get his attention and still he ignores me. If he has time to reply to comments on his FA page and fave pictures and even after almost a month since AC2010 he still hasn't replied, well, there's no excuse. It's not complicated or hard for him to reply to my asking him for an idea when an almost complete commission will be finished--in fact, it would have taken him mere seconds to reply but he didn't. That lack of responsiveness does not inspire confidence or trust.
I've been keeping track of the dates when I've messaged him since AC2010. I messaged him on July 4, July 19, July 29, July 30, and today. I've sent messages to his Furaffinity mailbox, posts on directly on his Furaffinity page, to his e-mail, MSN, ICQ, and AIM accounts, and on his Deviantart page. At first, I thought to wait two weeks each time and give him a chance to reply since he's busy but it's become apparent that he has no intention of doing so and is in fact purposely ignoring me for reasons only he knows.
Although he seemed sincere in person at Anthrocon about his intentions I can no-longer trust him because his subsequent behavior is not that of a responsible business person or human being. I see no reason why I should trust him to finish the commissions I paid him for if he willfully ignores me without explanation.
It is for this reason that today, after a month of trying contact him and waiting for a reply, I decided to ask Gunmouth for a refund. I thought it would be best since I know I'm only going to get more frustrated if I attempt to wait longer and based on my experiences with other people I think it's unlikely he's going to reform his behavior to satisfy me. So, rather than drag-on this problem I just decided to ask for a refund. I have little sympathy for people think it's alright to ignore paying customers.
Today, on his FA page and by e-mail I wrote:
"No offense but if you're not going to reply to my messages for an update I want a refund. Please send $190USD that I paid you to my PayPal account (*****@******). I've been as patient as I'm going to be. Thx.
I'm also adding you to the Livejournal artists_beware thread that I'll be updating until this is resolved. You're nice enough in person and I know you're busy but I can't work with someone who never replies. "
I think it's unfortunate that it's come to this because I'm perfectly happy to wait for him to be able to finish them (and I really do want Gunmouth to finish them) but only if he maintains a dialogue with me when I infrequently ask him how it's coming along and when he expects it will be done. Otherwise, who's to say he's not a crook who's trying to rip me off?! A person's word is only as good as their actions.
I've got commissions still ongoing from 2008 from other artists without issue and the only difference between them and Gunmouth is that they actually respond--maybe not always right away, usually within the week but certainly within a month. A healthy dialogue is important! Gunmouth, for all his artistic merit, has unfortunately failed to keep in contact with this customer. In short, as far as I can tell, he's being irresponsible at best and criminal at worst. After all, if you pay someone for a service they have a responsibility to keep you informed and reply within a reasonable time period.
Here is a list of some of his online locations though which I've attempted to communicate with him:
http://www.furaffinity.net/user/gunmouth/
http://gunmouth.deviantart.com/
MSN: knockemupstinky(at sign thing)hotmail.com
AIM: badvibes13
# ICQ: 4337720
E-mail: (I'm not listing it for privacy reasons)
Other places where he's online:
http://gunnmouth.livejournal.com/
http://inkbunny.net/GuNMouTH
Note: The names, links, and contact info mentioned in this post are in the public domain and found online on the internet so I have no issue listing them here.
Will be updating this thread as things progress.
[[UPDATE: August 2, 2010, Current Status of Dispute: in process of being resolved. Link to my reply to Gunmouth's reply to my initial post: http://community.livejournal.com/artists_beware/356583.html?thread=11512295#t11512295 ]]
[[UPDATE: August 3, 2010, Current Status of Dispute: in process of being resolved (making headway, cautiously optimistic); Link to my update: http://community.livejournal.com/artists_beware/356583.html?thread=11548647#t11548647 ]]
[[UPDATE: August 6, 2010, Current Status of Dispute: resolved. Link to my update: http://community.livejournal.com/artists_beware/356583.html?thread=11609831#t11609831 ]]
[[EDIT: April 5, 2011: Didn't change anything but removed my e-mail address and replaced it with *****@****. I don't like it being so easily in the public domain; should have thought of that at the time but was preoccupied.]]
[[ UPDATE: 2012 JAN 07:
SUMMARY: Gunmouth is a complex person and seems decent and friendly enough in person. His artwork is superb. However, new commissioners are advised to restrict themselves to at convention commissions only. If commissioners decide to commission him for a take-home, they certainly should only pay a small deposit upfront and the remainder only after the commission is finished. Unfortunately, Gunmouth, like some artists, is not particularly reliable when it comes to responding to commissioners via the internet. Although I think we both tried our best to work together, speaking for myself, I simply became too uncomfortable waiting and waiting and having difficulty getting replies from him. For his part, I'm guessing he became frustrated with my attention to detail for the commission--although, I though we had resolved that and I did try my best to accommodate his needs.
Unwilling to prolong my frustration, yesterday, I asked for a refund. Gunmouth thankfully replied the same day and has refunded me 4/5ths of the total, and will refund the remaining 1/5th after he has more money in his Paypal. I regret that will never have the commission completed as it looked very promising in sketch form. As I explained to Gunmouth yesterday, I simply become far to frustrated when artists delay and fail to respond to messages. I don't send them often but when I do, I don't like waiting weeks or months for replies--it just doesn't inspire confidence in the artist. It made me feel like I was being scammed and lied to or at the very least constantly being bumped to he bottom of the priority pile--despite the fact that I had paid in full already--such that it was questionable whether the art would every actually get done. Feeling my mood and confidence gradually deteriorate, I decided asking for a refund from now was the best thing I could do to prevent what might become an eventual explosion of anger on my part which of course would not help matters. So, I'm quite grateful that Gunmouth responded promptly to the refund request and I look forward to getting the refund completed. I regret we couldn't make this work.
LONGER EXPLAINATION:
One commission was still outstanding. It was supposed to be finished by Anthrocon 2011 in June but all Gunmouth had was a sketch to show me. It was enough however that I felt that progress was being made. A few months later, I contacted Gunmouth to let him know that I would be attending MFF2011 in November and that I could pick up the completed commission if he was able to get it done by then. At MFF, Gunmouth showed me the sketch and asked if there were any changes that I'd like made; he apologized for not having it finished but said he had been too busy to get to it. Having doubts as to whether he actually wanted and intended to finish my commission I asked him if he wanted to finish it or not and he said yes. He asked me if I wanted any alterations made and we made some small alterations to the sketch. I then asked him for a guess as to a rough date of completion. Gunmouth said he'd probably have something to show me around mid December. I waited until December 28th before I asked him for an update regarding the commission. Receiving no response, I tried again a week later but still no reply. Three days later, after noticing that three other commissioners had posted shouts on Gunmouth's FA asking for updates for their commissions and complaining about the lack of communication, I finally had enough and sent Gunmouth a request for a refund. The same day Gunmouth refunded 4/5ths of the money paid to my Paypal and messaged me saying he'll send the rest when he has more money is his Paypal. So, for the moment things are alright.
However, I am disappointed that I wont be getting that commission from Gunmouth. The sketch as looking promising and we seemed to be getting a long well enough--although I know better than to say we were friends. Although Gunmouth has been better at communicating with me since the opening of this thread over a year ago, there have been a few occasions where he simply did not reply at all.
Essentially, it's the combination of waiting so long but especially the spotty communication that caused me to decide to ask for a refund. As I explained to Gunmouth, I find it much too frustrating and time consuming to have to constantly pursue artists when they don't answer or deliver on time. Compared to some other artists I've commissioned, Gunmouth has not been particularly communicative online and so I didn't have what I felt was a healthy rapport with him.
At MFF, trying to take Gunmouth's needs into consideration, I told him that I'd be alright waiting for the commission to be finished by Anthrocon 2012 if he couldn't complete it by December. However, as I have explained to him previously, my waiting is contingent upon the artist replying to messages. As a commissioner I simply got to the point where I questioned if the commission would ever be completed. Although my dealings with Gunmouth have revealed that he can be a pretty decent person with interesting perspectives and useful advice, I simply don't know him well enough trust him to finish it given the way things have been going.
So, that is the state of affairs. Prospective commissioners should feel free to commission him but just be cautious and I think everyone will be happier if commissioners limit themselves to at-con commissions only.
Gunmouth, if you end up reading this update, I want you to know I appreciate you trying to work with me but I think we both agree it wasn't working and that my asking for a refund was the best thing. I know now I wasn't a perfect commissioner initially--with respect to giving too much detail with the commission--but I have listened to you and other artists and have made things simpler and shorter and I continue to work on things. It has been a learning experience I think for both of us. I'm glad at least that even if we can't get the commission finished that at least we can end on a semi-positive note.
[[ UPDATE: 2012 FEB 10]]
Got rest of refund about a week ago.
Not sure if Gunmouth was reading my messages or only their titles.
Offered to let him keep the rest of the refund in exchange for the incomplete drawing (the existing sketch version) since it seemed the most mutually beneficial and he said he needed money. However, Gunmouth did not respond to that which is fine if disappointing.
He is really a poor communicator. Trying to contact him is like pulling teeth.
I think he was just frustrated with the level of detail I wanted. I tried my best to work with him and even asked him at MFF2011 if he wanted to do the drawing or not with no hard feelings either way.
At-con commissions are probably ok but would not recommend him for take homes.
Things could have ended on a better note but at least we didn't argue.
Situation is now fully resolved and closed.
[[ UPDATE: 2012 JUN @ Anthrocon ]]
Spoke with Gunmouth in person. Wanted to try and patch things up as I felt we hadn't ended on the best of terms. I think we are both happier for the attempt. We talked about a few things and Gunmouth mentioned that the reason he hadn't finished my commission is that he realized that he doesn't like drawing hyper characters. Every time he tried to work on it he ended up working on something else. I also asked him why he wasn't always replying to my messages. He said his working style is more results oriented and that he prefers to only contact people when he has something to show them. So, our conversation all-in-all was positive. I asked Gunmouth about the possibility of paying him $20 to get the sketch he's already done and he said I could contact him prior to my next convention and he will bring the sketch so I can pay to get it. However, due to the fact that he doesn't enjoy drawing hypers (which I said I totally understand) and our disparate working styles (ie. concerning our views on online communication) I haven't any plans to commission Gunmouth again or to resume my uncompleted commission. So, all-in-all, I think we patched things up so that we both feel at ease.
I commissioned him at Anthrocon and he owes me two commissions which I paid for in full and one of which I have yet to give him details for (which was commissioned prior to this year's Anthrocon).
Since Anthrocon 2010, I've been contact Gunmouth to remind him about my commission from Anthrocon 2010 and ask him when he thought he might finish it. I just wanted to know when he thought he'd have it done. That way, I could just wait until then rather then messaging him every month or so. Indeed, the AC2010 commission was supposed to be finished at Anthrocon he wasn't able to get it done in time. The rough draft of the drawing was nearly complete but he had to trace it on good paper and ink it. I said, sure, no problem; I'd rather be patient and have you do it right than rush to get it done at the con. If you want to take it come and are ok with that then I'm fine with that to.
Since I've had problems communicating with him in the past prior to AC2010, I made sure to tell him that while I'm fine with being patient, even several months if necessary, it drives me nuts when I get no response to my inquires about the status of my commission. I made sure Gunmouth knew this and asked him to please reply and asked him if he could do this and he said sure.
Now, since the AC2010 drawing was close to being done, I thought he should have some news to tell me around a month after AC but he hasn't attempted to contact me or reply to my messages despite the fact that his FurAffinity account is active (he posts journals, favs artwork, replies to others comments on his FA page, etc.).
In short, the problem is that he doesn't read my FA messages and doesn't respond to them. I know he doesn't read my FA messages because FA allows you to check if they've been opened by the recipient. He never, ever checks them. I've even posted directly on the front of his FA page to get his attention and still he ignores me. If he has time to reply to comments on his FA page and fave pictures and even after almost a month since AC2010 he still hasn't replied, well, there's no excuse. It's not complicated or hard for him to reply to my asking him for an idea when an almost complete commission will be finished--in fact, it would have taken him mere seconds to reply but he didn't. That lack of responsiveness does not inspire confidence or trust.
I've been keeping track of the dates when I've messaged him since AC2010. I messaged him on July 4, July 19, July 29, July 30, and today. I've sent messages to his Furaffinity mailbox, posts on directly on his Furaffinity page, to his e-mail, MSN, ICQ, and AIM accounts, and on his Deviantart page. At first, I thought to wait two weeks each time and give him a chance to reply since he's busy but it's become apparent that he has no intention of doing so and is in fact purposely ignoring me for reasons only he knows.
Although he seemed sincere in person at Anthrocon about his intentions I can no-longer trust him because his subsequent behavior is not that of a responsible business person or human being. I see no reason why I should trust him to finish the commissions I paid him for if he willfully ignores me without explanation.
It is for this reason that today, after a month of trying contact him and waiting for a reply, I decided to ask Gunmouth for a refund. I thought it would be best since I know I'm only going to get more frustrated if I attempt to wait longer and based on my experiences with other people I think it's unlikely he's going to reform his behavior to satisfy me. So, rather than drag-on this problem I just decided to ask for a refund. I have little sympathy for people think it's alright to ignore paying customers.
Today, on his FA page and by e-mail I wrote:
"No offense but if you're not going to reply to my messages for an update I want a refund. Please send $190USD that I paid you to my PayPal account (*****@******). I've been as patient as I'm going to be. Thx.
I'm also adding you to the Livejournal artists_beware thread that I'll be updating until this is resolved. You're nice enough in person and I know you're busy but I can't work with someone who never replies. "
I think it's unfortunate that it's come to this because I'm perfectly happy to wait for him to be able to finish them (and I really do want Gunmouth to finish them) but only if he maintains a dialogue with me when I infrequently ask him how it's coming along and when he expects it will be done. Otherwise, who's to say he's not a crook who's trying to rip me off?! A person's word is only as good as their actions.
I've got commissions still ongoing from 2008 from other artists without issue and the only difference between them and Gunmouth is that they actually respond--maybe not always right away, usually within the week but certainly within a month. A healthy dialogue is important! Gunmouth, for all his artistic merit, has unfortunately failed to keep in contact with this customer. In short, as far as I can tell, he's being irresponsible at best and criminal at worst. After all, if you pay someone for a service they have a responsibility to keep you informed and reply within a reasonable time period.
Here is a list of some of his online locations though which I've attempted to communicate with him:
http://www.furaffinity.net/user/gunmouth/
http://gunmouth.deviantart.com/
MSN: knockemupstinky(at sign thing)hotmail.com
AIM: badvibes13
# ICQ: 4337720
E-mail: (I'm not listing it for privacy reasons)
Other places where he's online:
http://gunnmouth.livejournal.com/
http://inkbunny.net/GuNMouTH
Note: The names, links, and contact info mentioned in this post are in the public domain and found online on the internet so I have no issue listing them here.
Will be updating this thread as things progress.
[[UPDATE: August 2, 2010, Current Status of Dispute: in process of being resolved. Link to my reply to Gunmouth's reply to my initial post: http://community.livejournal.com/artists_beware/356583.html?thread=11512295#t11512295 ]]
[[UPDATE: August 3, 2010, Current Status of Dispute: in process of being resolved (making headway, cautiously optimistic); Link to my update: http://community.livejournal.com/artists_beware/356583.html?thread=11548647#t11548647 ]]
[[UPDATE: August 6, 2010, Current Status of Dispute: resolved. Link to my update: http://community.livejournal.com/artists_beware/356583.html?thread=11609831#t11609831 ]]
[[EDIT: April 5, 2011: Didn't change anything but removed my e-mail address and replaced it with *****@****. I don't like it being so easily in the public domain; should have thought of that at the time but was preoccupied.]]
[[ UPDATE: 2012 JAN 07:
SUMMARY: Gunmouth is a complex person and seems decent and friendly enough in person. His artwork is superb. However, new commissioners are advised to restrict themselves to at convention commissions only. If commissioners decide to commission him for a take-home, they certainly should only pay a small deposit upfront and the remainder only after the commission is finished. Unfortunately, Gunmouth, like some artists, is not particularly reliable when it comes to responding to commissioners via the internet. Although I think we both tried our best to work together, speaking for myself, I simply became too uncomfortable waiting and waiting and having difficulty getting replies from him. For his part, I'm guessing he became frustrated with my attention to detail for the commission--although, I though we had resolved that and I did try my best to accommodate his needs.
Unwilling to prolong my frustration, yesterday, I asked for a refund. Gunmouth thankfully replied the same day and has refunded me 4/5ths of the total, and will refund the remaining 1/5th after he has more money in his Paypal. I regret that will never have the commission completed as it looked very promising in sketch form. As I explained to Gunmouth yesterday, I simply become far to frustrated when artists delay and fail to respond to messages. I don't send them often but when I do, I don't like waiting weeks or months for replies--it just doesn't inspire confidence in the artist. It made me feel like I was being scammed and lied to or at the very least constantly being bumped to he bottom of the priority pile--despite the fact that I had paid in full already--such that it was questionable whether the art would every actually get done. Feeling my mood and confidence gradually deteriorate, I decided asking for a refund from now was the best thing I could do to prevent what might become an eventual explosion of anger on my part which of course would not help matters. So, I'm quite grateful that Gunmouth responded promptly to the refund request and I look forward to getting the refund completed. I regret we couldn't make this work.
LONGER EXPLAINATION:
One commission was still outstanding. It was supposed to be finished by Anthrocon 2011 in June but all Gunmouth had was a sketch to show me. It was enough however that I felt that progress was being made. A few months later, I contacted Gunmouth to let him know that I would be attending MFF2011 in November and that I could pick up the completed commission if he was able to get it done by then. At MFF, Gunmouth showed me the sketch and asked if there were any changes that I'd like made; he apologized for not having it finished but said he had been too busy to get to it. Having doubts as to whether he actually wanted and intended to finish my commission I asked him if he wanted to finish it or not and he said yes. He asked me if I wanted any alterations made and we made some small alterations to the sketch. I then asked him for a guess as to a rough date of completion. Gunmouth said he'd probably have something to show me around mid December. I waited until December 28th before I asked him for an update regarding the commission. Receiving no response, I tried again a week later but still no reply. Three days later, after noticing that three other commissioners had posted shouts on Gunmouth's FA asking for updates for their commissions and complaining about the lack of communication, I finally had enough and sent Gunmouth a request for a refund. The same day Gunmouth refunded 4/5ths of the money paid to my Paypal and messaged me saying he'll send the rest when he has more money is his Paypal. So, for the moment things are alright.
However, I am disappointed that I wont be getting that commission from Gunmouth. The sketch as looking promising and we seemed to be getting a long well enough--although I know better than to say we were friends. Although Gunmouth has been better at communicating with me since the opening of this thread over a year ago, there have been a few occasions where he simply did not reply at all.
Essentially, it's the combination of waiting so long but especially the spotty communication that caused me to decide to ask for a refund. As I explained to Gunmouth, I find it much too frustrating and time consuming to have to constantly pursue artists when they don't answer or deliver on time. Compared to some other artists I've commissioned, Gunmouth has not been particularly communicative online and so I didn't have what I felt was a healthy rapport with him.
At MFF, trying to take Gunmouth's needs into consideration, I told him that I'd be alright waiting for the commission to be finished by Anthrocon 2012 if he couldn't complete it by December. However, as I have explained to him previously, my waiting is contingent upon the artist replying to messages. As a commissioner I simply got to the point where I questioned if the commission would ever be completed. Although my dealings with Gunmouth have revealed that he can be a pretty decent person with interesting perspectives and useful advice, I simply don't know him well enough trust him to finish it given the way things have been going.
So, that is the state of affairs. Prospective commissioners should feel free to commission him but just be cautious and I think everyone will be happier if commissioners limit themselves to at-con commissions only.
Gunmouth, if you end up reading this update, I want you to know I appreciate you trying to work with me but I think we both agree it wasn't working and that my asking for a refund was the best thing. I know now I wasn't a perfect commissioner initially--with respect to giving too much detail with the commission--but I have listened to you and other artists and have made things simpler and shorter and I continue to work on things. It has been a learning experience I think for both of us. I'm glad at least that even if we can't get the commission finished that at least we can end on a semi-positive note.
[[ UPDATE: 2012 FEB 10]]
Got rest of refund about a week ago.
Not sure if Gunmouth was reading my messages or only their titles.
Offered to let him keep the rest of the refund in exchange for the incomplete drawing (the existing sketch version) since it seemed the most mutually beneficial and he said he needed money. However, Gunmouth did not respond to that which is fine if disappointing.
He is really a poor communicator. Trying to contact him is like pulling teeth.
I think he was just frustrated with the level of detail I wanted. I tried my best to work with him and even asked him at MFF2011 if he wanted to do the drawing or not with no hard feelings either way.
At-con commissions are probably ok but would not recommend him for take homes.
Things could have ended on a better note but at least we didn't argue.
Situation is now fully resolved and closed.
[[ UPDATE: 2012 JUN @ Anthrocon ]]
Spoke with Gunmouth in person. Wanted to try and patch things up as I felt we hadn't ended on the best of terms. I think we are both happier for the attempt. We talked about a few things and Gunmouth mentioned that the reason he hadn't finished my commission is that he realized that he doesn't like drawing hyper characters. Every time he tried to work on it he ended up working on something else. I also asked him why he wasn't always replying to my messages. He said his working style is more results oriented and that he prefers to only contact people when he has something to show them. So, our conversation all-in-all was positive. I asked Gunmouth about the possibility of paying him $20 to get the sketch he's already done and he said I could contact him prior to my next convention and he will bring the sketch so I can pay to get it. However, due to the fact that he doesn't enjoy drawing hypers (which I said I totally understand) and our disparate working styles (ie. concerning our views on online communication) I haven't any plans to commission Gunmouth again or to resume my uncompleted commission. So, all-in-all, I think we patched things up so that we both feel at ease.
no subject
All people who are waiting for stuff from me...
...note me on FA ...
...NOW.
___________________________________________
Maybe I can clear some of this up. I will admit that I am slow on commissions and trades. Though, MOST people who commission/trade me eventually get what they asked for, as long as they keep in constant communication with me...
What Featherdragon said is true-- yes, I have bee failing to reply to his comments. Granted, I feel he has been a little more impatient than others (in some cases, messaging me from every place possible after not even waiting a day since the last message), but I SHOULD have responded to him. For neglecting to do that, I apologize...
___________________________________________
That being said... there is a side to this story that has not been mentioned.... While this may or may not qualify as a good excuse in the eyes of others here, I still feel this should be mentioned...
Featherdragon approached our (Kamicheetah's and my) table at MFF 2009. He commissioned Kami to draw a couple herm dragon characters. This seemed simple enough... nothing we have not done before.
We were NOT ready for Featherdragon's 20+ page reference booklet that he dropped on her, which contained the following:
1.) Several different photos of his head at dozens of angles (because somehow the beaked dragon was supposed to have facial features that matched his)
2.) Several shirtless photos of himself, also at different angles (though, considering the giant lactating boobs, hyper penis, giant balls that must sag a foot between the legs, and wings, I don't see how a body of his size could hold or be seen behind such details)
3.) Very meticulously detailed character descriptions.
4.) Several footnotes scattered throughout the references.
5.) Several images of nearly each and every body part, clipped from images of other characters, drawn by other artists, which he wanted us to somehow incorporate into our drawings, all of which severely limited our creativity.
6.) Several references of his character.
7.) Other stuff I'm sure I'm forgetting, but cannot remember now, since his reference encyclopedia is not in front of me.
______________________________________
((More in next comment))
no subject
...note me on FA ...
...NOW.
Generally, it's pretty bad form to demand your customers come to you. They're not all going to see this, and it just looks like a way to avoid doing stuff you owe ("Well, they didn't contact me!"). It looks far better to be pro-active and contact everyone you owe yourself. If you can't, then it just looks like you don't keep proper records, which definitely looks unprofessional and unreliable.
Second, just the tone of it was really offputting and would make sure I would never personally commission you. I wouldn't want to be talked to like my dad just caught me with weed under my pillow or something. No need to be rudely demanding like that.
no subject
I'm a forgetful person, and not as organized as I want to be. If you are going to fault me for that... well okie-dokey~!
no subject
I'm not trying to attack you or anything, just trying to get across that it's not just their responsibility to keep in contact. It's yours as well.
no subject
The reason I want everyone to message me is so I can have all those messages sorted in my notes. It better ensures this work will get done.
no subject
no subject
I could make an e-mail addie specifically for commissions...
Then NO ONE would be able to STOP ME!!
Mwaha... mwahahahaa... MWAHAHAHAHAHAHHHHHAAAHHAAA!!!!
no subject
A simple "this commissioner is very picky, has a huge amount of details they want included, and nags" or whatever would have sufficed for your "excuses".
no subject
MOST, not ALL? That right there is why
no subject
no subject
You're the one who said people need to contact YOU elsewhere in this post. This situation wouldn't have come up if you'd taken the necessary responsibility to be a bit more "perfect" in the past. I'm not seeing where my assumption is all that wrong based upon what I've read in this post, but I AM seeing where an artist's lack of manners and professionalism is making my desire to ever work with them go steadily downhill.
no subject
Also, so far, all people in this thread who had trade/commission problems with me in the past... have been contacted, and I have almost completed their pictures. They also all seem pretty happy with what I have done... so why are you still upset? I even patched things up awesomely with the OP. The -only- people who seem to have problems with me are you and a few others in this thread, all who have had no personal commission experience with me.
I screwed up, yes. I admitted to doing so. I am fixing the problem. Even so, you're still somehow upset. Why?
no subject
no subject
Oh, and just wanted to edit this to say I hope your situation gets resolved happily, [Bad username or site: commodoremarie, @ livejournal.com]! :)
no subject
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Hi Gunmouth,
Ok, so, let me try and respond to what you said. I'll copy what you posted on my FA page here and address that first and then move on to what you posted in this thread.
You said:
"Here's a reply for you. Your picture is in the same sketch state as you saw it in. It has only been a month, and others have been waiting as long (if not longer) than you. It will get done."
My reply:
Although I didn't mention it specifically on your FA page or via e-mail, if you had read my initial post here carefully you would know that I'm not in any rush for you to finish and in fact am "perfectly happy to wait" and that my only problem is that you were ignoring all my messages. Specifically, I couldn't understand why such a simple question as 'Gunmouth, when do you think it might be done?' was something you couldn't answer. As I also mentioned in the above post, I messaged you at the beginning of July, and again two weeks later, and then I took more affirmative action at the end of July since it had been a month and I had seen you not opening or responding to my simple short question.
You said:
"As for artist beware, you can post there as much as you want. But you may want to consider that any delay on your commissions may be result of how overly meticulous you are about character details..."
My reply:
My policy with artists has always been that if you are willing to do the work then I am willing to wait (provided you keep in touch). Granted, if it were going on a whole year or two years and you still didn't have it done then I'd have to reassess the situation and decide if I wanted to continue waiting or ask for a refund. Now, since you accepted the commission and didn't object to all the detailed info I gave you, I had no reason to think there was any problem there. (You elaborated on this in more detail on your Livejournal post so I'll reply more to this statement below.)
You said:
"...amassing said artist with several pages full of OCD info, to the point where the artist almost doesn't want to draw it anymore."
My reply:
You saw my package at the convention and you never objected to it then. Indeed, despite the fact you had plenty of opportunity to raise this matter with me at the convention or afterwords online you only mention it now after I challenged you on why you weren't replying to my question about when you think my commission would be finished. And saying it's OCD strikes me as a personal attack meant to demean my integrity and distract attention away from the real issue here which is that you are a bad communicator.
If you didn't want to draw it or there is some problem that makes you not want to draw it; then what stopped you from talking to me about this and explaining your point of view? It shouldn't take my posting on LJ and sending numerous messages to your FA page for you to say something. I want to to work with my artists. If they have a concern I will listen and take it seriously and do my best to address it. Please, if you have a problem with what I've asked for or with me, then talk to me about it. Otherwise, hold your peace and give me my refund.
(Post continued. . .)
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You said:
"At MFM, you sat in front of us, blocking customers and covering our merchandise for literally HOURS. Almost every time you came back, you wanted changes. Every time."
My reply:
Ok now Gunmouth, don't exaggerate. Yes, it's true I was there a long enough time and certainly longer than most people but not literally hours. Secondly, at MFM, I was commissioning Kamicheetah and not you so I wasn't in front of your booth because you weren't the one I was commissioning there. Granted, Kami and you were both sharing a table, but I was on Kami's side of it. I was only trying by best to explain what I wanted and to show Kami. Still, if either of you really had an issue with how long I was standing there then you should have said something to me. Maybe you didn't want to hurt my feelings but there's no reason why you couldn't have expressed your view in a polite way. I didn't think there was anything wrong and although you may not believe this, I was trying my best to get though everything I wanted and leave Kami's booth as fast as possible. Some people are just faster than others, I'm a little slower when it comes to details. Next time, say something please.
Ok, why I kept coming back. Part of the way my brain works is that sometimes important details sometimes occur to me after the fact of a conversation. It's probably because, my mind's had a chance to think things over subconsciously a bit and then has an idea. Of course, I did my best to think of everything beforehand so I could tell it to the artists in one go, that's always the best thing.
Now, I thought artists appreciated being given details. I'm paying you money to draw any old thing after all. I thought I was helping. Now, I do understand where you're coming from. You're saying that in your opinion I was coming back to your both so often that it was distracting and annoying for you as artists who were trying to make money. In my opinion, I didn't think coming back two or three times to take a moment mention a minor point constituted a problem. Really, I always try to be careful not to bother people or rub them the wrong way. It's just that I paid you money and I wanted it done right and so if I thought of something after the fact and since I knew you wouldn't start work on my commission until later in your que, I didn't think there was any issue here. Later on below, you mention that I gave you an encyclopedia of reference material; I would think you would have appreciated my attempts to clarify things for you. And let me also point out that part of the reason I was coming back and forth to the both that you and Kami were sharing was because I paid for a joint commission between Kami and Fel and they wanted me to go pass along information between themselves. Of course, since that particular commission didn't involve you at all and you were hard at work, perhaps you didn't pick up on that fact and had enough residual awareness to see that I came to your joint booth again. For what it's worth I'm sorry you felt this way.
Since I now know this seems to bother you so much, I'd like to offer the suggestion that you and Kami tell commissioners that once they have finished telling an artist what they want, that they can't come back to clarify or modify details and can only come back to pick-up the finished commission. If a customer doesn't accept these terms, then it's simple: you wont take on work from them. Problem solved.
[Post continued. . . ]
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You said:
"You even went so far as to tell Kami she didn't know how to draw boobs right... So sorry if I ignored your messages, but I figured getting your pics done for you would be better than going back & forth with details. "
My reply:
Gunmouth, you're a little off topic. This thread is about you and me, not Kami and me. If Kami had a problem with something I said she had every opportunity to tell me. I haven't had any real problems with Kami. She's done wonderful work for me and I'd happily commission her again.
Fact is, I didn't tell Kami she didn't know how to draw breasts. What I said was that I wanted them drawn differently than how she was drawing them. She showed me the work-in-progress and asked me what I thought. What should I have done? Kept my mouth shut and said nothing?! I regard as commissions as collaborative effort between artists and their commissioners. What's wrong with a dialogue?! It was a minor alteration and Kami and I were just having a constructive artist-customer discussion. If she was offended or if there was any problem there, for the life of me, honestly, I didn't see it. If you really want people to give you money and you do whatever you want without them being able to have any say, be upfront about that before taking people's money. Of course, I'd imagine then you wouldn't get as many customers but at least everyone would know what they'd be getting themselves into.
Ok, you said you thought it better to spend time and energy getting the commission done rather than going back and forth with details. Fair enough Gunmouth. However, I just wanted to know when you thought it might be done. I never once asked you to go over any details after getting back from the convention. So, that's really not a valid excuse for not replying to my question.
Now, to address your Livejournal comments:
You wrote:
"Maybe I can clear some of this up. I will admit that I am slow on commissions and trades. Though, MOST people who commission/trade me eventually get what they asked for, as long as they keep in constant communication with me..."
My reply:
You say "constant communication" but well then, haven't I been trying to keep in touch? oO
You said:
"What Featherdragon said is true-- yes, I have bee failing to reply to his comments. Granted, I feel he has been a little more impatient than others (in some cases, messaging me from every place possible after not even waiting a day since the last message), but I SHOULD have responded to him. For neglecting to do that, I apologize..."
My reply:
I appreciate your apology Gunmouth. However, as I pointed out in my initial post at the start of this thread, I contact you on July 4th, and waited until July 19th to try again, and then waited until July 29th before trying yet again. After a month, I just got fed up with waiting and so I wasn't about to give you another two weeks to reply which is why I tried harder to contact you on July 30th and 31st. So really, your implying that I haven't been patient is not factually accurate. And I will reiterate yet again that this has nothing to do with the fact that my commission is not finished and has everything to do with the fact that you weren't acknowledging my messages. You admit to being a bit peeved at my attempts to contact you but yet you did nothing but ignore me and didn't even try to explain before now what was happening?! Is it any wonder that after a month of silence I was peeved and asked for a refund?! It's not so mysterious and unjustifiable when you think about it. If you're not willing to put in the effort to keep in contact with me I don't want to do business with you and I want my money back. It's very simple and very fair. Customers have a right to know what's happening.
[Post continued. . .]
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You said:
"That being said... there is a side to this story that has not been mentioned.... While this may or may not qualify as a good excuse in the eyes of others here, I still feel this should be mentioned...
"Featherdragon approached our (Kamicheetah's and my) table at MFF 2009. He commissioned Kami to draw a couple herm dragon characters. This seemed simple enough... nothing we have not done before.
"We were NOT ready for Featherdragon's 20+ page reference booklet that he dropped on her, which contained the following:
"1.) Several different photos of his head at dozens of angles (because somehow the beaked dragon was supposed to have facial features that matched his)
"2.) Several shirtless photos of himself, also at different angles (though, considering the giant lactating boobs, hyper penis, giant balls that must sag a foot between the legs, and wings, I don't see how a body of his size could hold or be seen behind such details)
"3.) Very meticulously detailed character descriptions.
"4.) Several footnotes scattered throughout the references.
"5.) Several images of nearly each and every body part, clipped from images of other characters, drawn by other artists, which he wanted us to somehow incorporate into our drawings, all of which severely limited our creativity.
"6.) Several references of his character.
"7.) Other stuff I'm sure I'm forgetting, but cannot remember now, since his reference encyclopedia is not in front of me."
My reply:
You accepted my money and agreed to work on the commission. You should have voiced any concerns or objections at the beginning when I gave you my references. I'm not a mind reader Gunmouth.
All you had to say was: 'Hey, I'm sorry but that's way too much stuff and I can't work with it. Just give me a brief description and one or two pictures or I wont be able to draw something for you.' I would either accommodated you or chosen not to proceed with the commission. By agreeing to take-on the commission and voicing no concerns at the time you implicitly agreed that everything was ok and ready to go forward from a business transaction standpoint. So, don't blame be for that and nothing stopped you from voicing your concerns to me afterward either--instead, I had to learn about it from your Livejournal post.
I admit, I could have been better organized with my details. I tried to be but I know I fell short. Yet, I thought that by giving you pictures and descriptions it would help give you an idea what I wanted. Part of the reason there were so many pictures was because pictures help communicate some concepts faster than words so I thought to include many examples that altogether would give the artist a quick visual idea of what I like on average artistically. It's also what made the document I gave you seem longer than it really was; I couldn't print those pictures too small or else you wouldn't be able to see any details.
[Post continued. . .]
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I knew even then that I have to shorten that 'encyclopedia' as you colorfully put it (although that is I guess a fitting descriptions as any). It's a work-in progress. Bottom line though is that you didn't object when I gave it to you so if you took on more than you were comfortable with you only have to look in a mirror to see who's fault that is.
I even asked Kami when I was commissioning her if she had any suggestions and one of the things she said to me was that I should shorten my descriptions. So, I am aware of that problem and I admit to it being a problem but most of that 'enclyopedia' was just pictures that you could glance it if you needed to to get a rough idea. It's a learning experience for me to Gunmouth because getting commissions from artists is still a fairly new experience for me. I've yet to find the right balance between details and brevity. Sometimes I might be ok with saying I want this and this and let the artist make everything up and other times I want to be much more involved. Whether the artist is ok with more details depends on them and my take on the whole matter is that the artist would tell me if I was going over the top by giving too much stuff. Like I said, this is a team effort and I'll work with you and not against you. All you have to do is clearly define and tell me what your limits are and I'll work within those parameters. I don't see why collaborating with a customer is necessarily a disadvantage. Obviously, you should have been more forthcoming to me before I paid you. I would have listened. I'm not trying to make your life complicated on purpose--I can promise you that.
Gunmouth, for future reference, I would appreciate it if you didn't reveal specifics about what I gave you for the commission. You can say that I gave you many pictures and a lot of info without saying exactly what the images I gave you were or what precisely I commissioned you for. These details are personal and I don't want them in the public domain. What they are exactly is also irrelevant to this discussion since your point could have been made just as well without disclosing this type of information. So, please, be careful about what you say.
I will also point out that your argument here is also irreverent because it demonstrates yet again how you are not a good communicator because if you were, you have raised this issue prior to now with me and avoided all this trouble and you haven't until I learned about it in your Livejournal Post. You could have said something to me but you didn't. Well, sorry Gunmouth, that's not my fault now is it? Your point that I need to work on shorting my reference material is indeed very true but however valid it is that's not the issue here at all. For what it's worth though, I'm sorry you feel so burdened by all the material I gave you.
So, now, here's what I propose to resolve the current situation :
[[For other Livejournal readers, don't worry, I'm going to be forwarding this directly to Gunmouth so he knows I've replied on LJ :3 ]]
My AC2010 commission:
You sent me an e-mail yesterady saying that my AC2010 commission will be done soon. Ok, that's good news. I'm guessing that 'soon' means within another month?
Since you've already put alot of work into it already and it's nearly done, (and because I'd be happy to have artwork from you) keep the money for now and go ahead and finish it. (I'll reply to your FA message if there should be changes to it later today after I finish writing this post.) You can contact me when it's finished or if there's anything you need to talk to me about. If I don't hear from you, I'll contact you again at the end of August. Please keep in mind, I'm happy to wait for you to finish it but, as I've said numerous times, that's dependent on you keeping in touch and not ignoring messages. You need more time, no problem, but I need you to tell me that. If the commission was going on 4 months or longer then I might start to question why it's taking that long but I'm pretty reasonable Gunmouth.
{Post continued . . .]
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Just so we're clear to avoid future misunderstandings: Please make sure you reply if I do end up contacting you because if you don't we'll just end up right back in the same situation as now and I know neither one of us wants that. And don't worry, now that I've gotten your attention and we've made some progress on resolving this, if I message you I'll wait a week or two to give you time to reply--just don't let messages drag on too long without replying and everything will be fine.
As for my Anthrocon 2009 commission:
I "might" be willing to continue with it if you are willing. Please tell me if you want to proceed with it and I'll decide what I want to do. However, as a precaution, I must still ask you to refund me for it right now [$100US to my PayPal: astrodra(at)hotmail(dot)com ].
If we decide to go ahead with the AC2009 commission and we agree on the details (or lack of details ^^ ) and how often (eg. once a month?) and under what circumstances I can expect to hear from you, then I give you my word that I will pay you when it's finished. If you trust me to be an honorable and fair-minded person then I ask you to believe that and trust me like I trusted you.
If you're not willing to work on it unless you keep the money, then cancel it and just refund me please. I'd rather have peace of mind than artwork from a talented artist, whom I admire for his talent, but who might soon-after return to ignoring my messages and being very difficult to contact; an artist who's solution to problems with me (up until now) has been to remain inexplicably silent rather than talk to and inform me of them so that I'm aware of his grievances and furthermore know what they are so that I can try to work with him to address them.
I still think there's hope we can work together Gunmouth and I'd like to be friends but right now I hope you can understand why I'm unwilling to leave the money for my AC2009 commission with you and want a refund for it.
I mean, say you were willing to proceed. I'd want to have dialogue with you when we're working on it (discussing details and periodically asking you how things are coming along). From what I understand, you would just find me annoying if I did that. So, if we are to proceed with it, we need to sort this out first. I was ok with giving you the money upfront for the AC2009 commission while we worked on it because I had no reason to think I'd have this much difficulty keeping in touch with you and I wasn't aware you objected to how I've handled myself at the convention and when commissioning you. After what's happened, I'm not willing to trust you as far as I once was, which is why I want the refund for the AC2009 commission.
[Post continued . . . ]
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Anyway, I think refunding me for the AC2009 commission while keeping the money and finishing the AC2010 commission is a fair compromise and solution under the circumstance. If we decide to proceed with the AC2010 commission you'll get the money back at the end, and I'll have it in the meantime as a security to guard and discourage against future problems (like lack of communication) should they arise.
Since I have the feeling that I may run into this communication problem with you again because it just seems to be the way you naturally are and I know that humans tend to be creatures of habit, I think the best solution for both of us is for you to finish my AC2010 commission and for me to cancel the AC2009 commission and for you to refund me.
If you want to finish my AC2009 commission, and promise to reply and not ignore my future messages, I'll have to think about whether I'd like to proceed. Either way, I want the refund ($100US) which would be returned to you should the commission ever be completed.
In summary, since you are willing, please go ahead and finish my AC2010 commission. However, you still need to refund me $100US for my AC2009 commission.
Side note: Please don't post my commission(s) online once it's done. I'd like to see it first, and then I might say nay or yay to posting it. If your policy as an artist is that you post all your commissions unless people pay you for the copyright, then let me see it and decide; in the end, I may just ask you to post it without indicating who the commissioner is.
So, please get back to me and let me know what you think.
Thanks,
~ Feather ~
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If you like I can accept payment for the comic pages instead of the art. I do appreciate that you've been noting me occasionally to let me know I'm still on your queue, but maybe it'd be easier for you to do it that way? You were initially offering money or trade option to begin with, anyway~