Rafflone - Tracing/Heavy Reffing

[sigilgoat.livejournal.com]

WHO: Rafflone, Soomiko on Second Life (Found on her FA)

WHERE: http://www.furaffinity.net/user/rafflone

WHAT: Multiple tracings and/or heavy reffing from both Second Life avatars and Poser with no credit given or admission.

PROOF: Litany of screenshots to follow. I apologize for the number, but with tracing posts, I want to make sure I am well documented.


Many of the following are NSFW and I will try to label them as such.

The first overlays I saw:
http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/1444/rafflonecomparisons1.jpg
These are older artworks that I could no longer find on her page.

My own overlays/comparisons:

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/65/raffloneproof1.jpg - Dragon from Shrek (The customer's dragon IS a Shrek style dragon, but that face matches up MUCH too closely.)

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/6932/raffloneproof2.jpg
http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/3874/raffloneproof3.jpg
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/5689/raffloneproof32.jpg (alt view) - Doberman by Chimera/Avenity/Orange04

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/2107/raffloneproof4.jpg - Sergal by Kinzart Kreetures/Sylver Bu/Species by Mick39 on FA

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/5135/raffloneproof5.jpg - Avatar by DSD Designs/Oken. (The customers character is the standard ram avatar with those peircings, so this is anecdotal evidence)

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/3788/raffloneproofhorses.jpg - Giant collage of horses, all based on the Avenity/Chimera/Orange04 model. The bottom two were for two separate commissions done at different times, left is female, right is male.

http://kimeiko.net/images/misc/A_B/RaffloneProofboobs.jpg - NSFW - Many of her breasts are traced using the small nippled model from DERP. I don't own these, so I wasn't able to get a good side by side.

http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/265/raffloneproof7.jpg - Anectodal evidence, I believe this comes from the Curious Moufette, but I don't own the avatar and couldn't do a good side by side.

Probably traced/heavily reffed from Poser (side by sides not mine):
NSFW - http://www.furaffinity.net/view/5774187 - The change in style and facial structure were the huge giveaways here. (hosted here in case of deletion: http://kimeiko.net/images/misc/A_B/RaffloneArt1.jpg)
http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/7663/raffloneposer.jpg
http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/5756/rafflonepose4.jpg
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/217/rafflonepose2.jpg - NSFW



EXPLAIN: As a customer of many avatar builders on Second Life, I was acutely aware that something was "off" with Rafflone's art. Once I saw an overlay, however, I was stunned. This was several months ago and I wanted to see if any of her customers or friends would come forward, or if her style would change at all. Unfortunately, I'm still seeing more of the same. I mean no ill will towards the artist, but this crutch will do nothing but hinder them in the long run and is taking a lot of creative license from the avatar creators.

EDIT 1 - rehosted two images

Comments

[grygon.livejournal.com]

Maybe it's just me? but most of these comparisons are borderline to me.

#1 and #4 overlay make strong cases, but the others... I don't really see anything that strong. A lot of people reference things but there's a lot here that she changed and most of the others, to me, don't even seem referenced from the screens you provide, but like they coud be referenced from any number of furry art out there. The pose of the shrek dragon may be similar and so is the design, as the commissioner requested, but everything else is slightly different.

And again maybe it's just me but it's not that hard to find a dog muzzle that is straight and thus seems to be traced- but as most of the other facial features are very different, I am hard pressed to think of some of those dog faces as traced or even referenced from the same comparison you provide.

[sigilgoat.livejournal.com]

I am quick to admit that I am not OCD about getting my SL model to fit exactly, since I wasn't willing to spend money to upload the ref materials in world to get them to fit.

The horses were the huge giveaway to me, it was absolutely startling when I saw how well they matched up, in the muzzle width, eye and ear placement and otherwise.

Anyway, it's up to everyone to form their own opinions about what I've presented. I'm not personally attached to this case.

[fatkraken.livejournal.com]

The SL referencing is definitely a bit off, but the poser ones just look like completely legitimate referencing for pose and anatomy to me. http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/217/rafflonepose2.jpg (NWS) for example is very clearly NOT traced, the angluations and proportions are different.

Unless you have a sexy girl at home willing to pose in the nip for you at any time, you have to reference SOMETHING to get an image looking right. It's not traced, it's not eyeballed to look exactly like the poser image, it;s just, well, posed the same.

Won't defend the SL stuff though, that's just bloody cheek.

[sigilgoat.livejournal.com]

The Poser side by sides were not captured by me, I will update the post to reflect that, and describe them as "heavily reffed" as well. I meant to do that, I apologize!

[nurikochan.livejournal.com]

I may be completely wrong since I've never used the program... but wasn't Poser originally supposed to be used as a reference tool for artists, before people started using it as an easier way to do 3D art without having to code it all? I know lots of people who use it that way.

[ginkaruja.livejournal.com]

I do believe that's what I've seen it advertised for in art magazines and art supplies catalogs.

[jono-m.livejournal.com]

http://www.furaffinity.net/full/4795652/ I also really suspect this one due to the faces and hair.
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/5774187/ and agreeing with this being a trace, the lighting looks very DAZ/poser-like and in some parts it looks like they didn't even try to change it.

[copper-curls.livejournal.com]

The latter of these two was done for Kit Keiko and me. So far as I know Kit does not consider this traced, Frankensteined or 'heavily reffed', and I certainly don't.

GingerM

[ogawaburukku.livejournal.com]

Nah. Sorry, I don't see tracing, I see reffing, and not very heavy reffing at that. I also don't see why reffing stock photography of a woman is bad... I buy pose books of naked men and women for that reason. Unless it's a trace, there is nothing wrong with reffing anatomy from a photo-- especially when it resembles the photo hardly at at all.

[candyfizzle.livejournal.com]

There are some that I definitely see as a trace! And some that seem more like references.
It doesn't mean the traced ones are okay, it just means we might wanna narrow the links down to the ones that are a bit more clear on it.

[otherscape.livejournal.com]

The first one I can see a trace (it even has that uncanny valley effect on the rabbit), but the others I'm going to call heavy referencing.

[enter-data-here.livejournal.com]

Same here, the top one of the first looks like it could be traced, but seeing all the other work which is clearly reffed - or in a lot of your examples, just similar in style and pose - I think it's just a case of heavy referencing.

[jamesalesto.livejournal.com]

Even if she is just reffing the SL ones, doesn't it need to be credited as it isn't a free resource? Poser, I thought, was meant to be a program to reference from, but the SL avatars are not!

[copper-curls.livejournal.com]

I agree with you on the ethical side of it, but the Linden Labs TOS regarding snapshots seems pretty wide-open; I posted it further down. And someone else speculated on avatar makers prohibiting snapshots, but I don't see how they can prohibit it in a public sim, say like Help Island, or by people who haven't bought their avatars. It would be like Ford trying to say people can't take pictures of Ford cars.

Again, not to defend people who use SL pics as tracing sources or references, but the only infringement I can see would be if they used someone else's SL pics without permission. If they take their own...?

[anjel-kitty.livejournal.com]

I also see really strong reffing, but not out right tracing. There are features about how she draws faces that gives more to her stylistic choices and bring a little emotion into them that the SL avatars don't capture. Though the noses on the canines matching up so exactly do make me think she might have traced some aspects or at least used them as a background transparency to get the proportions. With that said its pretty obvious she heavily refs these images, and maybe should make a point of giving credit to the people who produce the SL avatars.

On a slightly related note, after all these tracing posts, I've taken to only using photographs I take myself in my art these days, or ones I can draw out of my head with out looking at a pose ref. This is not to say I've always done this in my art and in the past when I was developing as an artist I did heavily pose ref from other artists' art even down to drawing the same species in the same poses. But I'm realizing now that its best to try to find your own material so instances where people come down on you for referencing others art can be avoided by just drawing from life, using many different references to put together into a new image, or just using photos or 3D models you create yourself.

[anjel-kitty.livejournal.com]

Of course when your favorite subject matter is distorted female anatomy and porn scenes that don't have many real life comparisons, I guess it can be hard to find the right sort of refs to use outside of SL.

[temrin.livejournal.com]

-nods- i definitely see heavy reffing. A few things are spot on but not the entirety. Just parts.

Regardless, no matter if references were open source/free to use (if poser is or not. I don't know) It is artist etiquette to site that reference or at least say reference was used. Because honestly, without saying it was reffed, you are giving your clients and viewers a false 'image' of your art. That it is not referenced and all their own work, when in fact, it is not.

Theres enough difference on most of those to be fine in my books if rafflone said that they were referenced. But as they are not, it makes me go :/ that is dishonest in my books. T_T

(frozen)

[stormslegacy.livejournal.com]

I don't agree. I think it's assumed that most artists use references. Nowhere in the professional art world do people say "and I used refs" when posting their pics.

[ducttapeninja.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry, but this one (http://www.furaffinity.net/view/5774187) is way too blatantly obvious to me. Even without a comparison pic, this whole scene looks way too 3D for comfort, especially compared to Raffleone's other works-- Her other stuff looks really 2D, but this one's borderline creepy to me.

[grygon.livejournal.com]

I took a quick glance at her gallery and I see several that have a 3D feel to them, actually.

[copper-curls.livejournal.com]

NSFW - http://www.furaffinity.net/view/5774187 (http://www.furaffinity.net/view/5774187) - The change in style and facial structure were the huge giveaways here. (hosted here in case of deletion: http://kimeiko.net/images/misc/A_B/RaffloneArt1.jpg (http://kimeiko.net/images/misc/A_B/RaffloneArt1.jpg))

This piece was commissioned jointly by Kit Keiko and me. Personally, I don't see the resemblance to Poser or DAZ models. If you have an overlay, that would be helpful. For what it's worth, I have the WIP sketch Rafflone sent to Kit and me during the commission process, and again, I don't see anything that suggest tracing or Frankensteining. If you'd like to see the sketch, I can provide it, but I'd have to ask Rafflone first to be on the safe side. You needn't worry about it disappearing from FA, either; it's also posted in my gallery. All I can offer is personal opinion on the other pieces under discussion, so I'll refrain.

GingerM

[myenia.livejournal.com]

Some of them are clearly traced, but even the others that people are only calling "referenced" are clearly traced as a starting point, and then edited. You can say that they're different (and most people here are), but that does not mean it was not traced. The thing that matters isn't the end result...its whether or not the artist drew it without the assistance of somebody else's art. Tracing does not become okay simply because the end result was changed from the original enough that its not an exact lay-over. Some of these are close enough to be able to eyeball and tell that they were definately originated from the models.

It actually really pisses me off that so many people on here are justifying the loose tracing by calling it referencing. Just because she's a smarter tracer than the others we've had recently on A_B and changed more than just the hairstyle.

[myenia.livejournal.com]

That said, there are a few in here that are not traces, obvious by the slightly-different angle in the finished image.

[frazzled-niya.livejournal.com]

http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/9600/rafflonepose3.jpg <- Imageshack removed this image.

:\ looks like uber heavy referencing to me if not partial tracing and altering.

That 3D looking picture stands out too much from her normal stuff o_O;

[sigilgoat.livejournal.com]

Ah shoot, that's one I didn't have hosted. I'll remove it.

[vellacraptor.livejournal.com]

To me it might not be traced, but that heavily referencing is almost just as bad imo.
And that one that is a commission with the two is so out of her style...yeah it's fishy.

[latiro.livejournal.com]

that's a real shame, and I was thinking of commissioning her, too -unwatches Rafflone-

[copper-curls.livejournal.com]

I would like to ask for guidance from one of the community mods, please, regarding the community's rules:

2. Whatever happens in the community, stays within the community. Do not go to the offender's LJ or art site account and harass them, or contact them any other way if the matter under discussion does not regard you personally.

Since one of the pieces identified as a possible trace in the OP is one I jointly commissioned, would I be considered someone who has a personal interest in this in the sense of this rule? I ask because I happen to disagree with the OP's view on this particular piece; as noted in an earlier comment, I am in possession of a WIP sketch which (in my opinion) does not support an allegation of tracing or "heavy referencing" (whatever that might be; I'm a bit unclear).

More generally, I'm not quite sure of the OP's purpose in posting this? So far as I can determine, she didn't commission anything from Rafflone, nor has she made any of the avatars she alleges were traced/Frankensteined by Rafflone, so what outcome does she desire? If she were a commissioner, she would presumably be pursuing some kind of resolution, but I don't see how that's going to happen here. So this post has been made, alleging certain activities, and Rafflone won't know of these allegations unless someone lets her know. However, her business reputation will suffer and continue to suffer until/unless someone prompts her to look at this and answer this. This strikes me as more than a little unjust; one shouldn't make allegations like this unless there is an avenue for resolution.

Yes, I feel a personal interest in this question since one of the pieces is a work I paid for. Personally, as I've said below, I don't see anything to support the allegation in the case of that particular piece. I'm aware that others do, but until Rafflone speaks to this, one way or the other, that's all it will be from either side - opinion, not fact.

Any guidance from mods would be very, very welcome.

[candyfizzle.livejournal.com]

The OP has some reason to post it.

If you were walking down the street and you saw somebody stealing money from a bank, would you not want to point it out to someone else, even if it wasn't your own money?

I mean, even if it's not true and she didn't trace anything. This is the type of community where you can simply warn others about certain artists if you see something iffy..

[copper-curls.livejournal.com]

Sorry - I hit "Post Comment" too soon. I wish to add that since Kit Keiko was the other party to the commission, since I am unclear whether or not I can ask Rafflone about this, I am going to send Kit the link to this one and ask her if she might care to weigh in on the subject as well.

[frazzled-niya.livejournal.com]

I'd say you and your friend are well in your rights to ask Rafflone, you paid for a commission not a trace or a Frankenstein-ed art piece and have the right to know.

[neolucky.livejournal.com]

Some are pretty close, some not so much. If she were just doing this for personal work I'd not have a terrible beef with it as I see a lot of it as reference. BUT...when commissions are involved thats another ballpark.

A lot of these have that "traced poser" feel, which are typically lacking in expression and depth. Thats the tip off for me in a few instances. Her style does seem to fluctuate a bit more then I'd call "average". If she is using it as a crutch, it's best to catch it early since she's capable of art without it.

[copper-curls.livejournal.com]

I mentioned earlier that I have the WIP sketch from Rafflone for the pic of Kit Keiko and my char; would it help if I posted a link to it for the community? If so, I will have to ask Rafflone for permission. kayla_la has clarified that I will not be violating Rule 2 if I do so, since it's my commission. That may help people to make a determination.

[neolucky.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure what a sketch proves, as sketches can be traced and drawn over other images. Did you physically watch her draw it over live stream?

I would like to see the sketch, personally, as I'm curious. But I will state, I think you're bias is showing. The image she did for you DOES really have that dead 3d art sort of feeling to it, whether or not you think the same.

I also really think the artist should come in and defend herself to this allegation.

[cyiakanami.livejournal.com]

I've been playing second life for many years, and actually was requested back in 07? to do some of those kind of overlays, using sl characters. And after seeing some of the hand positions in her pictures and the obvious above... it makes me sad. Not much more I can say on this accept I'm disappointed in her.

[claytronic.livejournal.com]

I can see how some of them are tracing [well.. frankensteining, really] but a lot of them are referencing.

[yokofox.livejournal.com]

Just gonna point out, you guys know that Poser and things like it, including SecondLife (in some instances, such as with your own avatar) are designed to be used as refs and even trace bases, right? I've had college level art instructors tell me that tracing small amounts from a photo or a program like Poser is perfectly acceptable~! And, there's an ENTIRE branch of professional artists out there who make their living by making near perfect copies of other people's work and reselling them. They're called replicas.

In all, I think this post is more than a little unnecessarily inflammatory. The only ones I see that MIGHT be an issue with tracing would be the horses, the dobie, maybe, and maybe the Shrek style dragon, though that one's really iffy. And, generic 3d models being used as references, or even traced? Why is the furry community so anal retentive about this?

There's a little slogan my art professor told me, really rings true here: "Nothing is original. Everything has been done, and probably better."

I sincerely doubt this is tracing, except in a few instances, most of which are from Poser, which, as stated above, is designed as a replacement for artist's mannequins.

You know, when I was a kid, I used my action figures as references for my doodles. Does that mean I should cite Marvel, DC, Mattel, or Hasbro on them? I doubt it.

[jamesalesto.livejournal.com]

This is commission work. Commissioners should be aware that this is what they are paying for. Some people do not want to pay for a trace. I know I've asked for refunds on pending art if the artist has been outed as a tracer.

And the items made in SecondLife are not free for use in this purpose, unless I am missing something where LindenLabs states anything uploaded to SL is suddenly public domain?

[shukivengeance.livejournal.com]

Some of these seem obvious traces to me, but even if they were all just 'heavily referenced' I'm not sure why doing do without citing sources or saying so is apparently okay?

[enter-data-here.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure anyone is saying it's okay, but just that they don't look traced?

If you heavy ref'd something it should be cited.

[shinigamigirl.livejournal.com]

No offense, but I think a lot of this is really reaching. The dog ones match up with like.. the nose. The sergal one looks like anyone drawing one at that angle would make it look like that. With the horse I can definitely see a lot of style resemblance (and I think most people don't draw horses that way) but I'm not convinced that it's outright tracing.

With that said, the one that bothers me the most is the herm one: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/5774187
It just really doesn't match her other stuff style-wise and like a lot of people have said, looks suspiciously 3d.

The poser pics look pose referenced to me for sure, but not traced. Just because she -might- have traced and then moved things around doesn't necessarily mean she did. I still absolutely think she should have listed references though.

[stormslegacy.livejournal.com]

The herm one gets me too--it genuinely looks traced/so-heavily-reffed-it's-borderline simply because of the style changes =/