Rafflone - Tracing/Heavy Reffing

[sigilgoat.livejournal.com]

WHO: Rafflone, Soomiko on Second Life (Found on her FA)

WHERE: http://www.furaffinity.net/user/rafflone

WHAT: Multiple tracings and/or heavy reffing from both Second Life avatars and Poser with no credit given or admission.

PROOF: Litany of screenshots to follow. I apologize for the number, but with tracing posts, I want to make sure I am well documented.


Many of the following are NSFW and I will try to label them as such.

The first overlays I saw:
http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/1444/rafflonecomparisons1.jpg
These are older artworks that I could no longer find on her page.

My own overlays/comparisons:

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/65/raffloneproof1.jpg - Dragon from Shrek (The customer's dragon IS a Shrek style dragon, but that face matches up MUCH too closely.)

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/6932/raffloneproof2.jpg
http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/3874/raffloneproof3.jpg
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/5689/raffloneproof32.jpg (alt view) - Doberman by Chimera/Avenity/Orange04

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/2107/raffloneproof4.jpg - Sergal by Kinzart Kreetures/Sylver Bu/Species by Mick39 on FA

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/5135/raffloneproof5.jpg - Avatar by DSD Designs/Oken. (The customers character is the standard ram avatar with those peircings, so this is anecdotal evidence)

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/3788/raffloneproofhorses.jpg - Giant collage of horses, all based on the Avenity/Chimera/Orange04 model. The bottom two were for two separate commissions done at different times, left is female, right is male.

http://kimeiko.net/images/misc/A_B/RaffloneProofboobs.jpg - NSFW - Many of her breasts are traced using the small nippled model from DERP. I don't own these, so I wasn't able to get a good side by side.

http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/265/raffloneproof7.jpg - Anectodal evidence, I believe this comes from the Curious Moufette, but I don't own the avatar and couldn't do a good side by side.

Probably traced/heavily reffed from Poser (side by sides not mine):
NSFW - http://www.furaffinity.net/view/5774187 - The change in style and facial structure were the huge giveaways here. (hosted here in case of deletion: http://kimeiko.net/images/misc/A_B/RaffloneArt1.jpg)
http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/7663/raffloneposer.jpg
http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/5756/rafflonepose4.jpg
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/217/rafflonepose2.jpg - NSFW



EXPLAIN: As a customer of many avatar builders on Second Life, I was acutely aware that something was "off" with Rafflone's art. Once I saw an overlay, however, I was stunned. This was several months ago and I wanted to see if any of her customers or friends would come forward, or if her style would change at all. Unfortunately, I'm still seeing more of the same. I mean no ill will towards the artist, but this crutch will do nothing but hinder them in the long run and is taking a lot of creative license from the avatar creators.

EDIT 1 - rehosted two images

Comments

[copper-curls.livejournal.com]

I would like to ask for guidance from one of the community mods, please, regarding the community's rules:

2. Whatever happens in the community, stays within the community. Do not go to the offender's LJ or art site account and harass them, or contact them any other way if the matter under discussion does not regard you personally.

Since one of the pieces identified as a possible trace in the OP is one I jointly commissioned, would I be considered someone who has a personal interest in this in the sense of this rule? I ask because I happen to disagree with the OP's view on this particular piece; as noted in an earlier comment, I am in possession of a WIP sketch which (in my opinion) does not support an allegation of tracing or "heavy referencing" (whatever that might be; I'm a bit unclear).

More generally, I'm not quite sure of the OP's purpose in posting this? So far as I can determine, she didn't commission anything from Rafflone, nor has she made any of the avatars she alleges were traced/Frankensteined by Rafflone, so what outcome does she desire? If she were a commissioner, she would presumably be pursuing some kind of resolution, but I don't see how that's going to happen here. So this post has been made, alleging certain activities, and Rafflone won't know of these allegations unless someone lets her know. However, her business reputation will suffer and continue to suffer until/unless someone prompts her to look at this and answer this. This strikes me as more than a little unjust; one shouldn't make allegations like this unless there is an avenue for resolution.

Yes, I feel a personal interest in this question since one of the pieces is a work I paid for. Personally, as I've said below, I don't see anything to support the allegation in the case of that particular piece. I'm aware that others do, but until Rafflone speaks to this, one way or the other, that's all it will be from either side - opinion, not fact.

Any guidance from mods would be very, very welcome.

[candyfizzle.livejournal.com]

The OP has some reason to post it.

If you were walking down the street and you saw somebody stealing money from a bank, would you not want to point it out to someone else, even if it wasn't your own money?

I mean, even if it's not true and she didn't trace anything. This is the type of community where you can simply warn others about certain artists if you see something iffy..

[copper-curls.livejournal.com]

I certainly would - but to make this analogy a bit closer, I would say "saw someone I suspected had stolen money from a bank." And the process would, at some point, involve the accused having the opportunity to face their accusers and either plead guilty or not guilty. Rule 2 of the community makes it difficult for that to happen.

Let me add also that I can see why Rule 2 was put in; the last thing that should happen is people choosing up sides and flocking to bombard either an artist or a commissioner. But I see above that someone else has already opted to unwatch Rafflone, and to not commission work from her - and Rafflone has not yet had an opportunity to face her accusers. That strikes me as unjust, however well-intentioned.

[candyfizzle.livejournal.com]

ohhh! Gotcha. That makes sense. I thought you meant Sigil posting it/ this community was unjust.

Thankfully all posts are open to discussion for this type of thing. Rafflone is welcome to come and share her side of the story!

[kayla-la.livejournal.com]

would I be considered someone who has a personal interest in this in the sense of this rule?

I, as one mod of several and one of the oldest ones, am personally okay with you contacting rafflone about the matter considering one of your pieces is up for review here. You're perfectly free to disagree here.

More generally, I'm not quite sure of the OP's purpose in posting this? So far as I can determine, she didn't commission anything from Rafflone, nor has she made any of the avatars she alleges were traced/Frankensteined by Rafflone, so what outcome does she desire?

Generally, tracing posts are made with the intent on getting the artist, assuming they are tracing, to be honest about their work and what they're doing. Usually (and I'm speaking generally about tracing posts, not just this one), tracers are outed so people can both make the decision whether or not to give money to someone who may trace work for them and as well so people can see if their own work was traced or they may recognize what something is based off of. It's community awareness, basically, as the majority in the fandom want little to nothing to do with traced work, and usually wouldn't support an artist that did so.

A 'resolution' is generally considered an admittance of guilt and stating references/removing traced work.

All that said, as I mentioned, you're perfectly free to disagree, we just ask that you keep it civil. Tracing posts can be very divided. Even in this very post, there are people saying that to them, the tracing is obvious, while to others, they just don't see it. We just ask everyone to respect each other. Sometimes, nobody is 'wrong' and only the artist will ever truly know if they traced.

If you have any more questions, feel free to ask!

[copper-curls.livejournal.com]

Thank you for clarifying for me, kayla_la. I don't know yet if I will contact her about it, but it's reassuring to know I won't be breaking community rules if I do.

I also apologize if I was unclear. I certainly don't have a problem with questioning whether or not an artist is tracing, or alerting people if there is suspicion of it; I even agree that some of the other examples cited (not the one I commissioned) could be seen as such.

My concern is that since the OP did not, so far as I know, commission anything from Rafflone, there is no dispute in progress with her. So unless Rafflone herself happens to come across this, she won't know of the allegations being made; allegations which can damage her simply by having been made, whether they're substantiated or not. If the desired outcome is that the suspect artist comes clean and apologizes for it, offers to make restitution, etc - or, alternatively, demonstrates that there is no substance to the allegations - they have to be aware of the allegations in the first place.

I would like to suggest that in cases such as this, where someone has brought something to the community's attention but where they have no personal stake in it, then rule 2 should be modified so that the artist can be made aware of it and respond so the matter can be resolved one way or another.

Going back for a moment to the piece I commissioned, I'm going to have to think about it. I like Rafflone's work a lot, and I can see in some of the images that there may be something to the allegation. This disturbs me more than a little, so I guess I have to ask myself, is it worth my peace of mind to bring this up with her? Particularly as the only piece I really do have a stake in is one where I don't happen to see any suggestion of tracing or Frankensteining, although others do.

Thank you again, and I hope this has been appropriately civil :)

[kayla-la.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately, the problem with what you suggest isn't with us, it's with Livejournal itself. We don't want uninvolved parties contacting people about posts made here because Livejournal staff might see it as harassment and the community could be put into jeopardy. It's there to cover our butts, basically, and it's unfortunately not something we can pick and choose about so as to keep the place safe.

[copper-curls.livejournal.com]

*nods* Unfortunately, it's a catch-22 situation. Thank you again for taking the time to elucidate.

[kayla-la.livejournal.com]

I WILL say this, I didn't remember to add it to my previous comment. This is going to sound sneaky, but if we don't know who on AB sent the post to the person the post is about, we can't take any action.

That is, if someone quietly PMs the person in question to tell them about the post and keeps it quiet that they did so, well, there's not much we can do about that.

But if someone goes to the person, outs the post, then comes back for .. some reason.. and goes "SO I TOLD THEM THERE WAS AN AB POST ABOUT THEM LET'S SEE WHAT HAPPENS!", well, we have to give them a stern warning and tell them not to do that again because otherwise it could be taken as us condoning harassment.

In other words, while we can't tell people it's okay to break the rule because it obviously isn't... don't ask, don't tell. If someone feels the person needs to know, just don't let us find out you did it, because we'll have to take action against you.

Hope that made sense.

[copper-curls.livejournal.com]

It does :) But I'd rather be beforehand with the community; if you'd ruled "No" in my case I would have kept my tongue between my teeth. That said, at the risk of sounding like I'm creating drama, I've decided I'm going to let Rafflone know the issue has come up. Whatever my personal opinion (which I've made clear, I think), others opinions differ, and Rafflone should have the opportunity to address it. Personally I have confidence that she will respond in a calm and adult manner.